2.2 Retainers via Microtransactions

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03-20-2014, 02:35 AM
Bizniztyme

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starlord

FFXI Extra Characters- Mules in most peoples eyes ( used for storing items, and in that game you got even LESS storage space 30 spaces.. need 6 Mules to roughly equal 1 retainer XD.
FFXIV Extra Retainers- Used for storing items.

The only difference is Extra Retainers give you A LOT more space. Not exactly sure how this equals- P2W It's not like your retainer is giving you the best gear in the game (or any gear for that manner) for free right?

This whole Retainer Venture thing could be something sort of a "Gobbie bag" type thing from FFXI, except as you level up your retainer you get more storage space.

Edit: Personally, I don't see why people need more then the 2 that they are giving. I have a feeling this feature won't be used a lot.

It's probably just going to be for storage space just like your mule in ffxi and the only retainers you can level and send out on ventures are the ones you get in game.
03-20-2014, 02:35 AM
Alwryn

I'm not going to read 8 pages to post this, so hah! (Sorry if this has already been posted a thousand times.)

1. I have all jobs 50, all jobs geared, a bunch of crafting jobs 50, craft regularly, a bunch of junk items from 1.X, all seasonals, more, and I am nowhere near filling up both my retainers.

2. It's not P2W because the currency to send out retainers is limited, it has a cap to how much you can gain in a certain time.
03-20-2014, 02:36 AM
Starlord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

It's probably just going to be for storage space just like your mule in ffxi and the only retainers you can level and send out on ventures are the ones you get in game.

Agreed 10000000%
03-20-2014, 02:41 AM
Tupsi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

It's probably just going to be for storage space just like your mule in ffxi and the only retainers you can level and send out on ventures are the ones you get in game.

Tell me - How would they separate which retainers are which? You're only flagged as having x amount of retainers not only that, why would they separate it like this? That makes less sense that the retainers you can buy would have less functionality than the ones you get after a chain of piss easy quests lol.

..How does that make any sense? Not only that but it would actually be violating some laws if they did a setup like that.
03-20-2014, 02:43 AM
Seif

This is exactly why I PAY MONEY for this game not to deal with microtransaction bs. SE you can NOT think this is accepptable in ANY way.

This is a complete betrayal of trust. And definitely will make me look for other games to play should this ever happen.

We pay you money to make content for the game. Not to make stuff to buy. We have already paid for this service that you are now selling us!
03-20-2014, 02:45 AM
Tupsi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seif

This is exactly why I PAY MONEY for this game not to deal with microtransaction bullshit. SE you can NOT think this is accepptable in ANY way.

This is a complete betrayal of trust. And definitely will make me look for other games to play should this ever happen.

We pay you money to make content for the game. Not to make stuff to buy. We have already paid for this service that you are now selling us!

You've been here since 1.0.

You know full well they planned to charge for additional retainers.
03-20-2014, 02:46 AM
Bizniztyme

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Tell me - How would they separate which retainers are which? You're only flagged as having x amount of retainers not only that, why would they separate it like this? That makes less sense that the retainers you can buy would have less functionality than the ones you get after a chain of piss easy quests lol.

..How does that make any sense?

I dont know, i'm not a programmer but I'm sure a smart programmer could simply just flag a retainer as a bought retainer somehow? Makes alot of sense to me.
03-20-2014, 02:46 AM
Alwryn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seif

This is exactly why I PAY MONEY for this game not to deal with microtransaction bullshit. SE you can NOT think this is accepptable in ANY way.

This is a complete betrayal of trust. And definitely will make me look for other games to play should this ever happen.

We pay you money to make content for the game. Not to make stuff to buy. We have already paid for this service that you are now selling us!

Woah, calm down now chicken little. Sky ain't falling.
03-20-2014, 02:46 AM
TheUltimate3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seif

We pay you money to make content for the game. Not to make stuff to buy. We have already paid for this service that you are now selling us!

Technically, you pay to access their servers, not for them to actually make stuff.

/devilsadvocate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

I dont know, i'm not a programmer but I'm sure a smart programmer could simply just flag a retainer as a bought retainer somehow? Makes alot of sense to me.

And I am a programmer (a laughably bad one, but one nonetheless) but it is possible to flag specific things to function differently. If they added a line of code or something to Station Bought Retainers, they could very easily set those ones to be different than the in game ones.
03-20-2014, 02:48 AM
Xellos2099

I do not like microtransaction as well but think of it this way. If you are given a choice of NEVER able to changing your character appearance and never have more retainer slot or have a "choice" of paying to made them available, i am sure majority of the population will ops for the later. NOW if SE start selling power then we got problems to be concern about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0TT_SGL-oc

This video is main about f2p games and microtransaction but it also include some interesting concept.
03-20-2014, 02:49 AM
Starlord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songi

What you're not realizing is, this is just the beginning of how a game evolves into p2w.

I think that some people (including this post) are over reacting on what most likely be a simple "storage" feature. XI technically had it and it didn't "Evolve" into P2W, this game won't either. Why would they have to? They have 500k+ Subs still.

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/14...players-japan/

Quote:

“If we go by the amount of people who log in each day, it’s about 500,000 people worldwide. There are people who also log in at least once every two days, so if we were to include those, the the figure would be much higher.”

They have no reason to make this game like a F2P P2W game.

Pay 2 Win is something that directly affects your character that gives you an unfair advantage with real money. Even if it's the worst case scenario and the Retainers bring you 7 Alagoat skins per 2 hours... and you buy 3 retainers does that really effect your character at all? No it doesn't but it could effect the economy.
03-20-2014, 02:50 AM
ErikMynhier

Its not like they're charging cash for your Zenith weapon. Nothing like a mmo crowd to overreact to everything. I'm jazzed to get third retainer. I keep my stuff real organized, one holds my equipment and the other holds my gathered mats and crafted items. A third one would let me split the crafted items and gathered mats.
03-20-2014, 02:51 AM
Bizniztyme

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starlord

I think that some people (including this post) are over reacting on what most likely be a simple "storage" feature. XI technically had it and it didn't "Evolve" into P2W, this game won't either. Why would they have to? They have 500k+ Subs still.

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/14...players-japan/

They have no reason to make this game like a F2P P2W game.

Agree, so much over reacting. I see the same thing going on for ESO, so much overreacting over such minute things. :)
03-20-2014, 02:56 AM
Gramul

Yeah. This isn't quite P2W. But it starts a slippery slope I hope they avoid.
03-20-2014, 02:56 AM
Xellos2099

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

Agree, so much over reacting. I see the same thing going on for ESO, so much overreacting over such minute things. :)

WELL for the case of eso, they re LOCKING a playable race for collector edition so outrage is kind of justified.
03-20-2014, 03:00 AM
Savage12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos2099

WELL for the case of eso, they re LOCKING a playable race for collector edition so outrage is kind of justified.

They just announced they will also be putting a horse in the cash shop for launch.Im still going to get the game but i dont see it taking long before they have a full cash shop in that game plus a sub.
03-20-2014, 03:01 AM
Bizniztyme

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos2099

WELL for the case of eso, they re LOCKING a playable race for collector edition so outrage is kind of justified.

I guess it could be, I just don't get so much outrage over a video game but to each their own I guess.
03-20-2014, 03:05 AM
ReplicaX

"More retainers via micro transactions" aka Additional/Optional retainers beyond your standard two, require a fee.
03-20-2014, 03:06 AM
rhemi1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos2099

I do not like microtransaction as well but think of it this way. If you are given a choice of NEVER able to changing your character appearance and never have more retainer slot or have a "choice" of paying to made them available, i am sure majority of the population will ops for the later. NOW if SE start selling power then we got problems to be concern about.

I'd actually prefer the option that lets me unlock these features in-game via a quest-line, drop, craft, or currency gate. For a sub based game, the options for stuff like this should never be, "Real cash or nothing."
03-20-2014, 03:14 AM
Sotek

So it begins... At the end of the day Square Enix is a company, just like any other. Naturally they'd try to get more money out of this by adding microtransactions as well. They're testing the water with something like extra Retainers, but if that's successful you can bet they'll do more. Can see this working real well with the new Retainer Ventures too. Want to get ahead in that? Buy a few extra Retainers, no wonder these are coming in the same patch.

Terrible move, pay to play should not have microtransactions. Period. Those bonuses for subscribing were nice, this is absolutely terrible. At best they've gotten this whole thing backwards. You pay to move server. You should pay to change your appearance. You should pay to get 50 free teleports. What should you get for continuing to subscribe? Extra Retainers. Anyone who has been playing for a while likely needs the extra space. Someone who just has $ to burn? They're just going to abuse the system and cause harm to the games economy, but what does Square Enix care? They get a heap of money out of such a short sighted move.

Guess Retainer Ventures really will be crashing the games economy though. Anyone with their moms credit card can now get a bulk amount of Retainers and go from 7 Apkallu Eggs per hour to 70.
03-20-2014, 03:17 AM
Doo

Do you think players that are in favor of cash shops are rmters?
03-20-2014, 03:20 AM
Alwryn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doo

Do you think players that are in favor of cash shops are rmters?

By that stretch of logic, everyone playing the game is an rmter. Since everyone is in favor of spending real money to play the game.
03-20-2014, 03:24 AM
TheUltimate3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwryn

By that stretch of logic, everyone playing the game is an rmter. Since everyone is in favor of spending real money to play the game.

Logic bomb.

Actual opinion, no devil's advocate.

I would prefer additional retainers not being from the Mog Station, but I'm not surprised. Right from the jump, we are given the ability to have two retainers with over 150(?) slots each. With 300(?) bank slots, if you are filling them up to full then that is your problem. And note, I have filled my retainers up to full, but I'm an idiot. Even if retainers couldn't go out on ventures, simply adding another 150 slots of storage space would be stupid on its own.

As I've said before though, I am far more interested in the Fantasia potion. I knew that was gonna be a premium item (as appearance changing items should always be).
03-20-2014, 03:24 AM
Mindylou

:D no issues in any way if retainers are a microtransaction.
03-20-2014, 03:27 AM
Doo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwryn

By that stretch of logic, everyone playing the game is an rmter. Since everyone is in favor of spending real money to play the game.

I wouldn't be surprised. RMT business got to come from some where and we know that RMT is huge in FFXIV. Cash shops are pretty much legalize rmt.
03-20-2014, 03:30 AM
Finuve

good to see that everyone (sans 1) ignored my post about defining pay 2 win

Remember, your definition of winning and someone elses definition of winning could be very different things, as two players can have very different goals in game, AND many players have multiple goals

The benefit of a subscription model is supposed to be that everyone has equal access to everything negating any advantage over ANY play style
03-20-2014, 03:30 AM
PROBOUND

My 2 FULL retainers thank you SE! .99 cents comin your way!
03-20-2014, 03:32 AM
Alwryn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doo

I wouldn't be surprised. RMT business got to come from some where and we know that RMT is huge in FFXIV. Cash shops are pretty much legalize rmt.

It's true, RMT is a sustainable business, else it wouldn't be here.

Cash shops can be legal RMT, yes. Key word however, is can. It can only be considered RMT if it buys a tangible advantage in game. It's possible SE could go down the darker path, but I don't believe they will.
03-20-2014, 03:34 AM
Alwryn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finuve

snip

Oh, people can have different definitions of what entails p2W? Who knew. Maybe people can have different definitions of what a subscription model is "supposed to be" as well!

Hehe, now I'm just having fun with ya but as long as it doesn't hold a tangible advantage over someone else in gameplay/progression then I don't consider it p2W.
03-20-2014, 03:37 AM
Finuve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwryn

Oh, people can have different definitions of what entails p2W? Who knew. Maybe people can have different definitions of what a subscription model is "supposed to be" as well!

Hehe, now I'm just having fun with ya but as long as it doesn't hold a tangible advantage over someone else in gameplay/progression then I don't consider it p2W.

your definition of winning is gameplay/progression, mine are gameplay/progression and character design. If vanity items start being locked behind a paywall then that is pay 2 win to me, as one of my main sources of enjoyment in the game is designing my character and am greatly looking forward to glamors due to that.

If vanity items start being cash shop items, I'm out in a heartbeat
03-20-2014, 03:38 AM
Doo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwryn

SE could go down the darker path, but I don't believe they will.

I came from DCUO and it started out pretty small. Then came replay badges that totally changed the game. The thinking is that once a company sees what type of ridiculous money they can make by using micro transactions, they aren't going to be able to resist the temptation. That's the reason for cause of concern even though it may seem small now.
03-20-2014, 03:40 AM
Xellos2099

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finuve

good to see that everyone (sans 1) ignored my post about defining pay 2 win

Remember, your definition of winning and someone elses definition of winning could be very different things, as two players can have very different goals in game, AND many players have multiple goals

The benefit of a subscription model is supposed to be that everyone has equal access to everything negating any advantage over ANY play style

Extra mule and the mog sachel was essentially the same thing and no one complain about them; and back in xi, the space are much more valuable as well due to in battle equipment swap.
03-20-2014, 03:46 AM
Orophin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razzle

Give fantasia as a quest reward? As a seal exchange? As a rare drop? As a treasure hunt? Why pay on top of a monthly fee for that?

Character alteration has always been a service charge in subscription MMOs, as well as other services such as world transfers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valendred

This whole thing wouldn't be an issue if paid retainers were simply ONLY for storage space.

I think we simply don't have enough information yet. We're taking a very loosely translated Japanese article (not done by Reinheart even) and assuming the worst.

In 1.0 they were going to charge an extra $1.00 per month for extra retainers before the development team shifted. People that came from FFXI were willing to pay that because we had to pay for extra characters in that game. This game, however, has a totally different playerbase now with many different backgrounds.

I don't think they will ever degrade the PvE experience by implementing significant paywalls through the Mog Station, but depending on the functionality of paid extra retainers, this could really churn some waters. If it's simply for extra storage then I'm sure most people won't care. If these same retainers can do Ventures or are the only retainers that can do Ventures, it's going to miff a lot of people because game features in a subscription game should not be behind an additional paywall.
03-20-2014, 03:47 AM
Kayo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starlord

I think that some people (including this post) are over reacting on what most likely be a simple "storage" feature. XI technically had it and it didn't "Evolve" into P2W, this game won't either. Why would they have to? They have 500k+ Subs still.

Ok can we please stop comparing this to FFXI's workaround for extra storage? I didnt play FFXI for much but iirc, you paid for an extra toon, not more bank slots. FFXI has (or at least had a very long time ago, feel free to correct me if im wrong) a cheaper sub fee for one character, then charged a slightly higher sub for more. A different version of what we have now so to speak. That is/was their pay model. Players decided to use it in a different way to have extra storage space. If they offered more space or *gasp* allowed us to make mules for those of us who pay the full $15 in FFXIV, this wouldnt be a problem. But I guess now we know why most other p2p MMO's dont restrict sending mail to alts because of "RMT." In fact, if I had my tinfoil hat on ... id say this has been planned for a while now and both SE and Yoshi have been b/s'ing us about this whole issue.
03-20-2014, 03:50 AM
Synapse

If it affects the game in anyway, where as it puts one player in advantage over another because one has more money.... i expect many to quit.

They are milking FFXIII like a mad man. So who knows.

FF
03-20-2014, 03:51 AM
Gesser

This' freaking ridiculous. No freaking way is this okay.
03-20-2014, 03:51 AM
Finuve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orophin

Character alteration has always been a service charge in subscription MMOs, as well as other services such as world transfers.

So since one company started a trend of screwing us, we should continue to just take it

they could at least take me to dinner first
03-20-2014, 03:52 AM
Amberion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Extra mule and the mog sachel was essentially the same thing and no one complain about them; and back in xi, the space are much more valuable as well due to in battle equipment swap.

That is because the same thing could be done with the delivery box system. I had over 50 items in it I cycled through.
03-20-2014, 03:55 AM
Faedden

Lol wut?

Yoshi's stance was that people shouldn't be able to get more things because they have a lot of time on their hands. But if that have a lot of money it's okay.
03-20-2014, 03:55 AM
LemmingKingXXX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taruranto

I don't remember being able to send my mules to gather ingredients in XI.

You never heard of gardening mules, or crafting mules? In a game where you could only obtain the highest level of crafting in one school + fishing, crafting mules had a significant effect on the economy and I personally made a nice income off of my gardening mules. Sure the start-up costs were more significant (both in terms of real money and gil) but they ended up having a much greater return than what it sounds like the Venture system will have. How long did it take them to get from the add $1 to the subscription fee they had at the start of FFXI to the mog satchel incentive to buy a security token or the tidal amulet 1/24hr Home Point teleport, it was something like 7 years wasn't it? Hell, it even took them the better part of a decade to add in paid server transfers and by the time I quit the game they still hadn't added paid character redesigns. Chances are if these features signifies some descent in to anarchy and madness it'll be long after most of us have moved on to the next generation of games.

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