Yep, its too much. They're going to buff warriors too much if those changes go live

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Originally Posted by Marleytiva

That's what has me excited most about these changes. I already love the synergy between WHM and SCH and with these changes it looks like bringing a PLD and a WAR will be the best option.

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Pretty much my thoughts as well. Yoshi is hellbent on trying to make it where having a diverse party far outweighs the benefits of class stacking, and I'm all for it. I'm just drooling at the thought of STR down, and x2 DMG down 100% of the time, throw in the occasional Virus and Sacred Soil and it's all gravy. Really just think of the prospects on things like Extreme Primals or Twintania, I'm just jittery with excitement!

Looking forward to finishing leveling my Warrior and trying out WAR 2.0 (or rather, 2.1). Seriously, two strong, viable tanks in the game is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

SNIP

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This better be a troll post. If not, the PLDs you are playing with are bad; straight up. When I went from WAR to PLD the difference was night and day. I love my WAR but the PLDs toolkit is insane. The only thing I hate about my PLD is threat generation. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Solduios

Show the math then

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Math. And also, relevant thread, relevant thread, relevant thread, relevant thread and relevant thread.

I'm sure there are plenty more, I got bored of looking after the first dozen or so pages of evidence.

Stop Posting In this Troll Thread. PLD will still have better mitigation. ALL they did(plan on doing) is bring WAR up to PAR to PLD so all these PLD can stop with the knee jerk reaction of PLD need to be Buff too. PLD do not need to be buff too.

(I Posted this in another thread, reposting)


Hallow Ground vs Holmgang :
Scenerio: PLD pops Hallow Ground So Healer1 can Raise Healer2 > Healer1 Raises Healer2> PLD still has Full HP and few more secs b4 Hallow Ground runs out.

Same Scenerio: WAR Pops Holmgang> Healer1 Raises Healer2> WAR HP is Critically Low, Holmgang Effect Wears off> Before WHM can Heal WAR Dies.

Winner: Hallow Ground even with the longer CD.

Inner Beast vs Rampart:
Sure you can have 20% mitigation essenstially evey 20 or so secs with Inner Beast, but people forget to account that PLD has a Shield + 20% Constant Mitigation in their stance. If anything, The New inner beast only Compensates for WARs lack of Shield. When PLD pop Rampart, they are really mitigating 40% (with the additional +20% from Shield Oath) and they are mitigating 60% with Sentinal, and lets not forget parry. Shield Block can block 100% of damage sometimes.

Winner: Rampart

New Defiance vs Shield Oath: Scenerio: PLD HP: 5000, WAR HP: 6250, Mobs Hits Tank for 4K Burst. PLD takes 3200, War Takes 4k Damage. Healer heals for 2k, PLD recovers 2k, WAR recovers 2400. PLD HP NOW: 3800(76% of Max HP), WAR HP NOW:4650 (74% of maxHP)

Winner: Tie. With regard to effective hp, Shield Oath still Wins. For Overall use, New Defiance Wins becauses of added crit chance.

Vengance vs Sentinal: See "Inner Beast Vs Rampart". Same Story here.

Winner: Sentinal

The 2 Classes are on even footing now.

IMO New WAR+PLD Combo will be Best for Future Parties. So Please Stop the Madness

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Originally Posted by Enjin

This better be a troll post. If not, the PLDs you are playing with are bad; straight up. When I went from WAR to PLD the difference was night and day. I love my WAR but the PLDs toolkit is insane. The only thing I hate about my PLD is threat generation. That's it.

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What are you even saying? I'm guessing you've spent absolutely no time reading what my actual argument is about.

The reason you saw a difference is because paladins are overpowered from game design, you'd know this if you took about two seconds to read anything I wrote in my original argument. The problem was never warrior, it was and still is paladin. Buffing warrior to paladin is the incorrect thing to do, because warriors are perfectly balanced for their gear progression versus game mechanics now.

The only reason people are whining is because it takes a considerably higher skill cap on the raid/tank to coordinate RoD/Soil/Proper Healing/etc, when tanking with a warrior. Too many people here come from wow where it takes nearly no skill requirement nor does it require a heavy strain on your raid to clear content.

If you feel that the game should be easier, I disagree with you and I hope it doesn't get easier.

To everyone complaining about the "difficulty of healing warriors" the truth is, they're balanced and you're lacking somewhere in your own ability or your raid is. Sorry the game isnt easy enough that you guys can play fruit ninja at the same time you're raiding.

The only thing ffxiv arr has going for it is the increased difficulty when it comes to raiding. Take that away and we have another crappy wow clone.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Pretty much my thoughts as well. Yoshi is hellbent on trying to make it where having a diverse party far outweighs the benefits of class stacking, and I'm all for it. I'm just drooling at the thought of STR down, and x2 DMG down 100% of the time, throw in the occasional Virus and Sacred Soil and it's all gravy. Really just think of the prospects on things like Extreme Primals or Twintania, I'm just jittery with excitement!

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So much this, with the added content being released I thin people are comparing the tanks on existing content. Well if something major wasn't done with WAR imagine how far behind the curve we would be with Extreme Primals alone. I am hoping with the buffs for WAR and leaving PLD alone that we are both really challenged with the content coming out.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

The reason you saw a difference is because paladins are overpowered from game design, you'd know this if you took about two seconds to read anything I wrote in my original argument. The problem was never warrior, it was and still is paladin. Buffing warrior to paladin is the incorrect thing to do, because warriors are perfectly balanced for their gear progression versus game mechanics now

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that's a philosophical argument, not a factual one.

you may see paladins as too strong (half full), while others see warriors as too weak (half empty)

that is, unless you buy every word SE says.. and accept both that warriors were 'performing very well, and even better than paladins in some cases' in their internal testing, and accept that noone had the foresight at SE to think that paladins would use rampart and/or sentinel while tanking

personally i give them more credit than that

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Originally Posted by Vmage

that's a philosophical argument, not a factual one.

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Yoshi >> First, I'd like to talk about the boss monsters in the Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 1 and 4. We designed them so that even tanks could not withstand their attacks when they have buffs stacked; however, at the moment only paladin is able to survive through a method we had not thought of. Our original vision for this was that players would clear these encounters by properly removing enemy buffs or kill them all before it got to the point where they would one-shot players.

Since this is content that has already been released and strategies have already been established, we won't be making adjustments to these encounters. Instead we'll be looking into making adjustments to warrior so they can withstand this like paladin is able to.

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Right from the horse's mouth. So yes, it is indeed factual.

Link for reference: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...810-30-2013%29

It is important to realize, people's conception on balance was/is completely skewed. Since paladin (OP, not intended) allowed for people to tackle coil without the proper gear (its an i90 dungeon, highest gear before then is is i70, so everyone was going to coil under geared. Again here I am relying on logic to tell me that the missing iLevel of gear is an issue), means that the Warrior (perfectly balanced based on current implemented gear progression) suffered from a backwards content release where we skipped an ilevel of gear.

Once warriors caught up into what is the proper gear level (not over geared, remember coil is i90) from mythos gears or the precious allagan pieces that dropped, you then saw warriors start to tank and even now MT twitanna based on what the progression would have been if warriors were in i90 (the proper gear).

Its pretty easy to see that from both a logical and informational standpoint, the argument is completely valid.

People just don't like the idea that they've been clearing content a bit easier than they should have been.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

Right from the horse's mouth. So yes, it is indeed factual.

Link for reference: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...810-30-2013%29

It is important to realize, people's conception on balance was/is completely skewed. Since paladin (OP, not intended) allowed for people to tackle coil without the proper gear (its an i90 dungeon, highest gear before then is is i70, so everyone was going to coil under geared. Again here I am relying on logic to tell me that the missing iLevel of gear is an issue), means that the Warrior (perfectly balanced based on current implemented gear progression) suffered from a backwards content release where we skipped an ilevel of gear.

Once warriors caught up into what is the proper gear level (not over geared, remember coil is i90) from mythos gears or the precious allagan pieces that dropped, you then saw warriors start to tank and even now MT twitanna based on what the progression would have been if warriors were in i90 (the proper gear).

Its pretty easy to see that from both a logical and informational standpoint, the argument is completely valid.

People just don't like the idea that they've been clearing content a bit easier than they should have been.

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Your argument is they should nerf PLD. The quote clearly shows that they both realize this, and are not going to do it. It is more important to them to keep paying customers happy than nerf the PLD. But balanced tanks is important so they're buffing the WAR instead.

At least they know what the problem was. So when adding the next round of end game content, you can expect future content will be balanced to be just as difficult as it was for the WAR this time around. The difference is that it should be just as difficult for both tanks since they're closer to being balanced. And ideally it will work out this way, as having made this mistake once, they should hopefully be able to avoid it in the future.

But you already know they know what the problem is, and you already know they're not going to nerf PLD either. So what's the point of the big post?

Changes make Warrior a viable option at the same iLvl in the same context and on the same content as a Paladin. Instead of a burden, you are just someone that needs slightly more healing.

They do not make Warrior better than Paladin, nor do they make Warrior do more DPS. Paladin can Sword Oath same-iLvl content, Paladin can STR/DPS accessory same-iLvl content and it can do this while riding CDs and continuing to safely Main Tank the encounter. Warrior is not afforded this same option outside of being able to wear some DPS accessories or swap their VIT-STR. Regardless of this, to tank, Warrior still requires Defiance to be active and having Defiance active puts them at a severe DPS disadvantage against any Paladin using Sword Oath. (Which as I've mentioned, Paladin can use while Main Tanking same-iLvl content)

To be the same as 1.0, Warrior would need to take Paladins DPS and double it. At the same time it was doing double the damage of a Paladin, Warrior would need to also self-heal for massive bursts in AoE situations and also have the exact same suite of damage mitigation CDs as a Paladin outside of Hallowed Ground as well as a Stun that works on 90% of the bosses you fight and a dodge that worked very well too. It would need to be better in every way by such a large margin that the only time you would take a Paladin is when you required Hallowed Ground or you needed a class that could survive without a Healer for periods of time because your group is the shit and you laugh at anyone using two healers for anything.

Outside of that though, Warrior won't be like 1.0 and to be perfectly clear it won't even be in the same fucking ballpark.

It will be viable though, and that's all you can ask for.

Wow. Troll thread is really, really trolly.

What a troll thread. Overly complaining and criticizing a change before it is even released.

Also this is coming from a over geared WAR. Of course you can tank everything if you have a amazing group and geared.

How about the rest of us?

People....

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Originally Posted by MBTL90

With these changes, wars will easily become the go to tanks for both AoE and burst mitigation. They are already better AoE tanks, and now wars will be much better than paladins on fights like Titan and Twintania. Having 20% DR up every Death sentence, in addition to the bigger HP pool will make wars by far the superior tank. To even approach that sort of mitigation every 30-35 sec, Paladins have to use a 1.5-2m cd. This isn't even counting them straight up adding another defensive cd to wars that is better than all but one of the CD's pallies have.

In a vacuum, the classes are probably close to each other. If you crunch the numbers, their average mitigation over a fight is now probably similar. Situationally, ie in all the content that matters right now, wars will be just better.

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What? No....

PLD shield Oath + Rampart. Don't tell me WAR are anywhere close in comparison for damage mitigation after these changes.

We get one 20% for 6 seconds every 15 seconds on average and a 30% every X minutes. No where close.

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Originally Posted by wonka11

Right from the horse's mouth. So yes, it is indeed factual.

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if you dig back another month from that live letter, you'll find Yoshi-P posting about how warriors are stronger than paladins in their in-house testing, and urging players to start playing warriors and try it out for themselves.

no, it is not factual to claim that warriors are both better than paladins, and paladins are better than warriors.

yes, it is completely philosophical to argue about whether one is undertuned for content rather than the other being overtuned for content.

no, I absolutely do not believe that a paladin using defensive timers was something that literally zero people at SE foresaw breaking their content.

Yoshi-P also said fewer than 100 people would clear turn 5 before patch 2.1 hit, however more than 100 people have killed twintania on my server alone.

it'd be nice to live in a place where you could take a game developers/producers word as gospel, and rely on it as being true 100% of the time. that simply isn't the case.

instead of following them blindly i try to make my own decisions about what's in front of me.

i can look at both of our melee dps, see that they both have similar toolkits, a few debuffs/dots/self buffs.. and they have dps timers..

i can look at both of our healers, see that they both have similar toolkits, ways to burst heal for higher HPS, ways to heal slower for a higher HP/MP ratio, and they have some healing and MP regen timers

i can look at both of our casters, see that they have similar toolkits, they both have methods for sustained DPS as well as methods for burst

and then? i look at both of our tanks, see that their toolkits were seemingly intended to be the same? but that there's a huge disparity... they both have exactly equal passive mitigation. shield oath has always added exactly the same amount of eHP as defiance has. unfortunately shield oath effectively increases healing received on the paladin by 25% (with no additional threat) while 5x wrath only increases this by 15% (and now 20%, both at the cost of extra threat)... there's a rough parity there, one would think there would be a trade-off in this area for balance purposes.. so we can look at thrill of battle + inner beast and compare it to hallowed ground + sentinel + rampart + bulwark...... and then wonder who in their right mind thought this was balanced.

to reiterate, i'm fully aware of the live letter stating that paladins were overtuned, i even referenced it twice in posts before you quoted it.

what you're not comprehending is that i don't believe everything a game producer and/or developer says... mostly because they end up contrdicting themselves (again, i referenced the fact that they claimed warriors were stronger then paladins in their testing)

what you're claiming is that paladins made the content easier, and let players clear things they shouldn't have with the gear available to them.

...so what about the healers? so what about the dps?

we were able to meet the dps checks in turn 1 and turn 2 and turn 4 without dying to their enrage mechanics while the raid was wearing full darklight

by your logic this means all of our dps were also overtuned?

i realize accepting warriors as of 2.0 are undertuned and paladins are tuned perfectly with the other 7 jobs flies in the face of that one PR statement

...but it's a tad more reasonable to look at the whole rather than one specific (contradictory) sentence in one live letter and hold on to that as the only thing backing your argument up.

Yes they may-have made the warrior over-powerful, but this is not by much and on purpose. When a class gets reamed for being too week for most to the time a game is out they need draw in people back to the class psychologically. I imagin they will say: "Yeah sorry we over did it." and do a slight tweak bringing them back down to PLD level in the future.

They maybe over-powered now, but not by much, and not in a game breaking manor; but in all honestly I think it was done on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

if you dig back another month from that live letter, you'll find Yoshi-P posting about how warriors are stronger than paladins in their in-house testing, and urging players to start playing warriors and try it out for themselves.

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....everyone seems to have their own interpretations of what "warriors are strong in the developer environment" means.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

Yoshi-P also said fewer than 100 people would clear turn 5 before patch 2.1 hit, however more than 100 people have killed twintania on my server alone.

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Just saying, I'm really sick and tired of seeing this talking point come up over and over again when it's completely invalid. As it stands, a grand total of 8 people on the planet ever beat Twintania in the form Yoshi discussed. Had Twintania stayed unnerfed, absolutely would Yoshi's estimate of less than 100 people be viable.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

if you dig back another month from that live letter, you'll find Yoshi-P posting about how warriors are stronger than paladins in their in-house testing, and urging players to start playing warriors and try it out for themselves.

no, it is not factual to claim that warriors are both better than paladins, and paladins are better than warriors.

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It is completely factual to state Warriors are inferior to Paladins in the current iteration of FFXIV.
These re the same people who said they killed Absolute Virtue, posted a video of it dying , and then suggesting it was possible to kill with ease.

Yeah, no, Yoshi was flat out wrong, and realized he was wrong later on.
Everything is relative yes, but when you are comparing tank viability, you compare it to other tank specs, you don't bring up DPS or healing. They have nothing to do with how Rampart is clearly better than Foresight in every way.
They have nothing to do with the fact that Hallowed ground makes a PLD invincible for 10 seconds.

Stop trying to play both sides of the fence, no one is fooled and you look silly to try it.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Stop trying to play both sides of the fence, no one is fooled and you look silly to try it.

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He's a Lala, gonna look silly no matter what.

I don't think there exists an evil cabal of devs at Square who want one tank class to dominate the other tank class. The discrepancy between PAL and WAR was pretty large in terms of just raw tanking and that is all this patch will address. 5-6 Stack Caduseus, Double Dred turn 4, Solo tank Twintania, all will be easier with a PAL in 2.1 but totally viable for a WAR to do as well. Most of the average population will still run PAL PAL.

If you want to reroll WAR in 2.1 I highly recommend it; its a much more active experience. If you're not as confident and want a continued 1-2-3 passive tanking experience, stick with PAL

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Originally Posted by wonka11

I've said it over and over again, while getting bashed and told I was an idiot for saying that warrior was fine and paladins were the class they should reevaluated (nerf). . .

Nobody listened.

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THE END IS COMING AND WONKA11 HAS FORESEEN IT ALL!

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Stop trying to play both sides of the fence, no one is fooled and you look silly to try it.

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actually....

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Yeah, no, Yoshi was flat out wrong, and realized he was wrong later on

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^ that's my only point

i don't believe for a second that the ARR incarnation of warrior was ever in the same ballpark as paladins

my point is "see guys i told you paladins are what isn't balanced" isn't exactly accurate, if paladins were the only class that wasn't balanced properly (meaning literally every other class is on 2.0 warrior level) then you'd never meet the DPS check for turn 2 ADS, let alone turn 4 with your dps all sitting in darklight gear

yet that simply was never the case

my point is that warriors were undertuned, and the other 8 jobs are fine, and i really don't care what yoshi said one time in a live letter, he's already contradicted himself repeatedly

Having a WAR + PLD in your run now is going to be desirable, as opposed to only bringing Paladins.

You reduce the damage to whoever is main tanking simply by having both tanks on it. Like DF Titan requiring 2 Tanks. Imagine if the PLD is the main tank, with a WAR offtank keeping up the damage reduction debuff on Titan, (as long as its not just a -STR like the PLD one) keeps the offtank relevant there.

Titan isnt the only one, Hydra benefits from this as well and i assume there are fights in Coil where both tanks are hitting the same boss. In general, it will be beneficial to have both Jobs, much like a SCH + WHM.

Gotta love those paladin tears :D

Anyway, I rolled as warrior because I like hitting things with an axe and will continue to be one for that reason, whether or not it is the "inferior" or "superior" tank. If you feel the need to throw away your paladin and reroll warrior just because it might get a minuscular edge in certain contents with the upcoming patch, you are a sad person.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

Gotta love those paladin tears :D

Anyway, I rolled as warrior because I like hitting things with an axe and will continue to be one for that reason, whether or not it is the "inferior" or "superior" tank. If you feel the need to throw away your paladin and reroll warrior just because it might get a minuscular edge in certain contents with the upcoming patch, you are a sad person.

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Anyone who does that is crazy.

I imagine I'll actually play my WAR more often than never now, which I'm excited about, but any PLD heavily invested into mtomes (read: any worth discussing) will unlikely dump their blinged out and still perfectly viable tank to the curb just because 2.1 makes both tanks viable.

I will say that 2.1 is going to make me spend mtomes on WAR next instead of BRD or WHM, but that's not a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

my point is that warriors were undertuned, and the other 8 jobs are fine, and i really don't care what yoshi said one time in a live letter, he's already contradicted himself repeatedly

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I guess we can agree to disagree. As a turn 5 war, I disagree.

I am a Turn 5 Warrior, I agree.

Then again, my achievements aren't hidden.