If it is not broken, DO NO FIX IT!

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Originally Posted by Syxilor

I never said that there was a majority against it, was just curious if there was something I missed stating that the majority do not like it as you state they do not, so I'm not really sure how that proves anything for you.

I would love to see a mix of class and level restricted armor but still have the ability to wear generic armor.

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Earlier in the thread there were a couple posters saying those that like the Armory system were a minority. I simply turned it back on them.

Nothing wrong with class and level restricted armor. It would be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by omnibahumut

This isn't a single-player sandbox RPG. If you want a game where you can make any kind of character you want irregardless of the consequences, play Oblivion or something similar.

The problem with having "customization" in an MMO, is that there are always going to be "optimum" builds.

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Wrong.
More customization -> More options
More options -> More VIABLE options.

Having the game slapping the "optimum" build in your face for sure doesn't make "optimum" builds go away.

So, in order to solve the problem of min/maxing, you have the game min/max for everyone in the same way?
Sorry but... lol.

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Originally Posted by omnibahumut

This isn't a single-player sandbox RPG. If you want a game where you can make any kind of character you want irregardless of the consequences, play Oblivion or something similar.

The problem with having "customization" in an MMO, is that there are always going to be "optimum" builds. Once you figure out what is the best way to Tank and the best way to Deal damage, any other customization is irrelevant. Sure you CAN, but whats the point of doing whatever you want if its going to make the rest of your game experience suck? An MMO is not a field where you do things just because you can.

In FF7 you can overload a character with Summons and bring his HP to 1000 at level 99, but in an MMO world that would never work. You would need MIME, MEGA-All, Quad-Cut, etc... to even be considered a strong character if FF7 were an MMO.

Even if FFXIV were in an ideal world where there were 50 bosses and each needed a unique character build to beat, then you're just making the game difficult to play, because you're looking for so many specific players, it would become unwieldy. A balance would be hard to find with the way FFXIV is currently set up, because of the way stats are assigned...

The whole thing needs to be re-hauled, because none of the pieces work together.

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Again... Ultima Online and Darkfall are both MMORPGs where you can make what ever type of character you want. So this isn't something that only exists in single-player RPGs. If you try to argue if FFXIV is theme park or sand box it's probably supposed to be a theme park mmo... but uhhh I find we are having to make our own fun more than running content from SE so does that make it a sandbox at the moment?

And Ultima Online isn't "A" MMPRPG. it's "THE" MMORPG that started them all.

Funny how the people that base their flawed points on the "history of mmorpgs" don't know that history very well.

Replying to OP: I don't mind the armory system but I hope advanced jobs unlock abilities that further define a certain role and aren't cross-class abilities. For instance, say I level Gladiator to 30, Conjurer to 20 (yes I stole this idea from someone else, I think its great), I unlock Paladin - Paladin would have its own set of abilities with the majority defining ones being Paladin exclusive. This way people can specialize as they see and still have some flexibility.

I think the game needs level restricted armor. As of now theirs nothing really to strive for. I played ffxi for 6 years and i loved to level up and equip that new piece of armor. Scorpion Harness anyone. It felt like an achievement, and the gear in ffxi was a huge deal. The gear in this game not so much. Hell i went from rank 1-20 in a day one with the starting gear and rank 1 weapon, Also i never died. To me gear doesn't mean a thing in the game. Weapons seem to have more of an impact. The gear that i actually want is the NM gear. Looks cool and its the only thing that's a challenge to get in the game. Be nice if they add RSE gear and AF gear with restricted ranks to equip them.

Se should keep the system the way it is but with any new gear that drops from NM or events i think should be rank restricted. It will give players something to strive for.

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Originally Posted by Frebaut

I think the game needs level restricted armor. As of now theirs nothing really to strive for. I played ffxi for 6 years and i loved to level up and equip that new piece of armor. Scorpion Harness anyone. It felt like an achievement, and the gear in ffxi was a huge deal. The gear in this game not so much. Hell i went from rank 1-20 in a day one with the starting gear and rank 1 weapon, Also i never died. To me gear doesn't mean a thing in the game. Weapons seem to have more of an impact. The gear that i actually want is the NM gear. Looks cool and its the only thing that's a challenge to get in the game. Be nice if they add RSE gear and AF gear with restricted ranks to equip them.

Se should keep the system the way it is but with any new gear that drops from NM or events i think should be rank restricted. It will give players something to strive for.

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You got it. The armor you wear is pretty much negligible unless you are a tank or a DoL/DoH. The only thing that matters is your weapon.

yeah i have to agree too with keeping the current system with a few tweaks, like having an automatic stat and abbilities allotment that remembers your last setup for each class, just like you had in WoW when you changed from an abbility tree to another all your actions were remembered and placed on the slots you had.

Making that will definetely improve the system so you dont have to change your stats every time you change your class and it will be true the fact that you can change to any class in a blink just like they stated at the beginning.

And of course it will let you have the freedom to customize your character as you see fit.

They can not make stats effective while we have the physical level system because then you really would be tied to certain classes. If they allowed stats to work properly and you decide to spread your point's more evenly so you can level other classes you would be terrible at all classes at high ranks compared to the guy who only focused on DD and put all his points in to STR and DEX.

The game must have taken some pointers from its former and take off from there.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

They can not make stats effective while we have the physical level system because then you really would be tied to certain classes. If they allowed stats to work properly and you decide to spread your point's more evenly so you can level other classes you would be terrible at all classes at high ranks compared to the guy who only focused on DD and put all his points in to STR and DEX.

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Nope. There are hard caps in place. If you unbalance your stats excessively, you run into the cap and waste points.

The only, real, big problem is that the caps are not visibly indicated.

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Originally Posted by Frebaut

I think the game needs level restricted armor. As of now theirs nothing really to strive for.

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I would say that if your only reason to level up is wearing new armor, then the problem isn't that the armor is not level restricted, but that the game is too shallow and needs more depth and goals.

I'm all for SOME level/class restricted armor, by the way, as long as there's also a sizable variety of generic armor to mantain look variety and the ability to mix and match, and to avoid the "army of clones" effect where everyone with the same class in the same level range wears exactly the same stuff. That would be a very sad step back.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Again... Ultima Online and Darkfall are both MMORPGs where you can make what ever type of character you want. So this isn't something that only exists in single-player RPGs. If you try to argue if FFXIV is theme park or sand box it's probably supposed to be a theme park mmo... but uhhh I find we are having to make our own fun more than running content from SE so does that make it a sandbox at the moment?

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The fact is that freedom to make any character you want means, by necessity, the freedom to mess up your character any way you like. Some choices will always be better than others. True balance is impossible, which would not matter if you did not have a community obsessed with being hardcore and min-maxing.

If character A can bring the debuffs you need, do exceptional damage and survive, why would you bring character B who free-formed it, has the debuff, but does less damage because he chose to allocate stat points to boost his self-healing? The ability to choose is golden, but mix-maxing is all about getting what you need and minimizing redundancy. A build that overlaps with the job of another member of your party is sub-optimal in a hardcore environment, and therefore, less desirable.

Long post short: Free-form is not free when some choices are better than others. And since true balance is impossible, there is always a "right" and a "wrong" way to build your character for endgame content.

Also, to your point about sandbox vs. theme park: this game is not a sandbox, it just sorely lacks meat on the bones. Take RIFT, for instance. 90% of the quest content in that game is glorified grinding. However, the quests justify it, give it a strong purpose, and guide you along a storyline that makes the game feel cohesive and alive.

Sandbox MMO's sound great in theory, until you realize that a lot of the players are not very good at content generation and storytelling. I presume many of us are here because we enjoy FF-style storytelling and gameplay, both of which FFXIV lacks right now.

Well the hard cap for VIT and MND is 174 at Rank 50, tell me do you have stats anywhere near that? Like I said at lower ranks it is fine, you hit cap easily, now try and hit cap at Rank 50.

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Originally Posted by Ablongman

Long post short: Free-form is not free when some choices are better than others. And since true balance is impossible, there is always a "right" and a "wrong" way to build your character for endgame content.

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Removing choice completely isn't for sure the right solution to the fact that there are some choices better than others.

As long as there is a sizable variety of viable and good choices then the fact that some choices are better than others is a complete non-issue.

Anyone who likes the current system is in the minority. If you want evidence of that, look at the number of people who bought the game versus the number of people who play the game.

The whole concept of physical level runs counter to the philosophy of playing whatever class whenever, wherever. By "customizing" your character for one role, you're essentially stuck with that unless you want to spend a few hours reallocating each and every time you switch classes. And even if you just want to play one role and have no need to reallocate, who different is your character from anyone else playing that role? The point is attribute points don't customize your character at all, they just pigeon-hole it.

As for the ability to wear gear above your characters rank, that too is completely dumb, and hurts every single player. All classes leveling have nothing to look forward to gear-wise if they're already wearing whats considered the best. Crafters leveling up have greater difficulty selling their low to mid level gear simply because there's the perception that high level gear is just as good as appropriate level gear.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Well the hard cap for VIT and MND is 174 at Rank 50, tell me do you have stats anywhere near that? Like I said at lower ranks it is fine, you hit cap easily, now try and hit cap at Rank 50.

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Then the problem isn't the system in itself, isn't it? It's that the caps are badly balanced, and should be rebalanced (and replaced with soft caps, by the way, hard caps are always worse than soft caps), AND be made visible, of course.

Systems that don't work perfectly don't need to be necessarily scrapped. They can be tweaked and rebalanced.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Anyone who likes the current system is in the minority. If you want evidence of that, look at the number of people who bought the game versus the number of people who play the game.

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I'll have you know that the "I'm right because I'm in the (perceived) majority" is a rather flawed and faulty argument.

Oh, since we're at it, people that bought the game and don't play anymore, do so for a very wide variety of reasons. Assuming that they don't play anymore because they don't like what YOU don't like is another flawed argument based on nothing.

They may not like the lack of content, of polish, the UI, the lag, they may simply like other games more, have to work and a moltitude of other reasons.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Anyone who likes the current system is in the minority. If you want evidence of that, look at the number of people who bought the game versus the number of people who play the game.

The whole concept of physical level runs counter to the philosophy of playing whatever class whenever, wherever. By "customizing" your character for one role, you're essentially stuck with that unless you want to spend a few hours reallocating each and every time you switch classes. And even if you just want to play one role and have no need to reallocate, who different is your character from anyone else playing that role? The point is attribute points don't customize your character at all, they just pigeon-hole it.

As for the ability to wear gear above your characters rank, that too is completely dumb, and hurts every single player. All classes leveling have nothing to look forward to gear-wise if they're already wearing whats considered the best. Crafters leveling up have greater difficulty selling their low to mid level gear simply because there's the perception that high level gear is just as good as appropriate level gear.

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Logical fallacy, sir. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because people quit playing does not mean that they quit playing because of the armory system. It's not as if there aren't at least a dozen salient issues with this game that could drive anyone short of a die-hard fan away.

And the solution to your gear concern isn't to completely remove the ability to equip armor. It's to make the penalties scale more drastically, to the point where armor over 10 ranks above/below yours no longer provide any stats when equipped. This way, roleplayers and people who enjoy wearing cool-looking armor around town can be happy, and still have a reason to look for level-appropriate armor for their day-to-day.

Again, let's search for sensible solutions to problems without throwing the house out the window or resorting to misrepresentation.

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Originally Posted by Ablongman

The fact is that freedom to make any character you want means, by necessity, the freedom to mess up your character any way you like. Some choices will always be better than others. True balance is impossible, which would not matter if you did not have a community obsessed with being hardcore and min-maxing.

If character A can bring the debuffs you need, do exceptional damage and survive, why would you bring character B who free-formed it, has the debuff, but does less damage because he chose to allocate stat points to boost his self-healing? The ability to choose is golden, but mix-maxing is all about getting what you need and minimizing redundancy. A build that overlaps with the job of another member of your party is sub-optimal in a hardcore environment, and therefore, less desirable.

Long post short: Free-form is not free when some choices are better than others. And since true balance is impossible, there is always a "right" and a "wrong" way to build your character for endgame content.

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Well You can't main heal or Dot effectively on any classes but DoM. I think the idea is that you are supposed to be able to be versatile. Ok my grind party lost the Gladiator so now I'm going to tank as my Pugilist instead of DD. I change my actions to what I need for Tanking and on we go. This is better than sitting around waiting for the Gladiator we just invited to run from the node. Or if we couldn't find another Gladiator we could just continue on without them. The same applies to NM hunting.

One of the rewards of gaining is ranks should be the ability to wear new gear. I do not like the current system of one size fits all.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Removing choice completely isn't for sure the right solution to the fact that there are some choices better than others.

As long as there is a sizable variety of viable and good choices then the fact that some choices are better than others is a complete non-issue.

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I actually agree with you, but I do think there's a threshold where choice for the sake of choice gets academic. For instance, what's the use of a full-on support role when you can adequately spec support/DPS or support/heal and contribute more overall? At that point, full-on support is a choice, but not a viable one. Which begs the question: is it truly worth having?

I am for keeping the system in spirit, and instead finding ways through gameplay to make every choice viable in some way. I don't think physical/rank level is what's causing the issue.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Well the hard cap for VIT and MND is 174 at Rank 50, tell me do you have stats anywhere near that? Like I said at lower ranks it is fine, you hit cap easily, now try and hit cap at Rank 50.

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Well at rank 45 I have 166 STR yes I mistakenly went over cap, so I dont see why one would not be abel to get stats to 174 Just not a lot of them, so that means you have to make a choice, do you want to hit harder, miss less, have more health, more mana. This allows for more diverse builds.

I think there should be a difference between customizing your character, and having a defined role.

As it stands, all of the classes feel the same. Cross classing abilities is almost useless, except for a few that you can easily get before rank 20.

So after getting all the classes you want, it's easy to just pick one and stick with it.

Everyone calls it "customization" but really it turns into "all of the best abilities." Where is the pick and choose? I like having to pick one ability over another. Or one (defined)class over another. "Custom" implies making choices: giving up one trait for another. That isn't what we have in XIV. All of the DoW, save archer, play exactly the same way. So I don't know that you really can call it "customized" when there isn't anything to customize with.

Once the classes have defined roles, unique abilities (that can only be used in their class). That's when people will have to make tough choices about the character they want to play. As it stands now, it's a collection game. Who can get the most abilities to throw into a hodgepodge character. There is no form, or definition to our characters. At the end of the day, we're all just spamming the 1 key.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

Well at rank 45 I have 166 STR yes I mistakenly went over cap, so I dont see why one would not be abel to get stats to 174 Just not a lot of them, so that means you have to make a choice, do you want to hit harder, miss less, have more health, more mana. This allows for more diverse builds.

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For balancing reasons. The more wide you allow people to swing the stats, the more it's hard to balance the effect of such stats. That's why basically every MMORPG that allows stats allocation also has hard or soft caps.

The real problem is not that there are caps, but that such caps are not visible. They should be clearly indicated, in order to avoid players erroneously wasting points.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Well You can't main heal or Dot effectively on any classes but DoM. I think the idea is that you are supposed to be able to be versatile. Ok my grind party lost the Gladiator so now I'm going to tank as my Pugilist instead of DD. I change my actions to what I need for Tanking and on we go. This is better than sitting around waiting for the Gladiator we just invited to run from the node. Or if we couldn't find another Gladiator we could just continue on without them.

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Maybe, but there's such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sure, it's convenient for anyone to be able to change and do anything on the fly, but that will create the passive expectation in the community that everyone should be as flexible as you, or automatically become less valuable. So in your scenario, an inverted version of what I proposed still occurs. Now flexibility is the norm, and there is no choice but to be a jack-of-all-trades or get sat out of parties for someone who is.

There's no escaping this, really. There is no such thing as an absolutely free-form system, because even with equal balance and absolute versatility, some decisions are more right than others (in this case, choosing versatility over specialization).

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

I think there should be a difference between customizing your character, and having a defined role.

As it stands, all of the classes feel the same. Cross classing abilities is almost useless, except for a few that you can easily get before rank 20.

So after getting all the classes you want, it's easy to just pick one and stick with it.

Everyone calls it "customization" but really it turns into "all of the best abilities." Where is the pick and choose? I like having to pick one ability over another. Or one (defined)class over another. "Custom" implies making choices: giving up one trait for another. That isn't what we have in XIV. All of the DoW, save archer, play exactly the same way. So I don't know that you really can call it "customized" when there isn't anything to customize with.

Once the classes have defined roles, unique abilities (that can only be used in their class). That's when people will have to make tough choices about the character they want to play. As it stands now, it's a collection game. Who can get the most abilities to throw into a hodgepodge character. There is no form, or definition to our characters. At the end of the day, we're all just spamming the 1 key.

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Sorry but I tend to swap out many of my abilities and traits depending on if I'm tanking or DPS on my PUG as do the MRD I know.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Then the problem isn't the system in itself, isn't it? It's that the caps are badly balanced, and should be rebalanced (and replaced with soft caps, by the way, hard caps are always worse than soft caps), AND be made visible, of course.

Systems that don't work perfectly don't need to be necessarily scrapped. They can be tweaked and rebalanced.



I'll have you know that the "I'm right because I'm in the (perceived) majority" is a rather flawed and faulty argument.

Oh, since we're at it, people that bought the game and don't play anymore, do so for a very wide variety of reasons. Assuming that they don't play anymore because they don't like what YOU don't like is another flawed argument based on nothing.

They may not like the lack of content, of polish, the UI, the lag, they may simply like other games more, have to work and a moltitude of other reasons.

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oh, you.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UGqFniDBUB...-TrollFace.png

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For balancing reasons. The more wide you allow people to swing the stats, the more it's hard to balance the effect of such stats. That's why basically every MMORPG that allows stats allocation also has hard or soft caps.

The real problem is not that there are caps, but that such caps are not visible. They should be clearly indicated, in order to avoid players erroneously wasting points.

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there is no caps if you read my post you know the stat points do nothing what so ever

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Originally Posted by Ablongman

Maybe, but there's such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sure, it's convenient for anyone to be able to change and do anything on the fly, but that will create the passive expectation in the community that everyone should be as flexible as you, or automatically become less valuable. So in your scenario, an inverted version of what I proposed still occurs. Now flexibility is the norm, and there is no choice but to be a jack-of-all-trades or get sat out of parties for someone who is.

There's no escaping this, really. There is no such thing as an absolutely free-form system, because even with equal balance and absolute versatility, some decisions are more right than others (in this case, choosing versatility over specialization).

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I don't think anyone expects people to have 3 or more classes to rank 50 or be that flexible.

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

I think there should be a difference between customizing your character, and having a defined role.

As it stands, all of the classes feel the same. Cross classing abilities is almost useless, except for a few that you can easily get before rank 20.

So after getting all the classes you want, it's easy to just pick one and stick with it.

Everyone calls it "customization" but really it turns into "all of the best abilities." Where is the pick and choose? I like having to pick one ability over another. Or one (defined)class over another. "Custom" implies making choices: giving up one trait for another. That isn't what we have in XIV. All of the DoW, save archer, play exactly the same way. So I don't know that you really can call it "customized" when there isn't anything to customize with.

Once the classes have defined roles, unique abilities (that can only be used in their class). That's when people will have to make tough choices about the character they want to play. As it stands now, it's a collection game. Who can get the most abilities to throw into a hodgepodge character. There is no form, or definition to our characters. At the end of the day, we're all just spamming the 1 key.

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Actually the more you raise in levels, the more you have to make a choice on what abilities to use. At the moment I deficinetly can't fit all the abilities I would like to use due to the action points limitation.

Also, as already said a thousand times, the current classes "feel" the same not because a ranger with some THM abilities is the same as a THM, but because there's no challenging content.

That ranger with THM abilities isn't challenged to the limit of it's skills, so his healing, despite being very limited by his mana, by the lack of class affinity, and by the fact that he cannot AOE heal, is still sufficent to be viable.

The introduction of actually challenging monsters and enemies would challenge the abilities to their limit, making the lack of affinity (lower heals), the low mana and the lack of AOE heals much more apparent, relegating the ranger's THM abilities to a support/solo role, while an actual THM would have to take up the role of the healer.

It's all a matter of balancing, not really a matter related to the basics of the system. We're pitched against total pushovers. Can't be surprised if we can pull every role without breaking a sweat.

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Originally Posted by dragonslaya

there is no caps if you read my post you know the stat points do nothing what so ever

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And you'd be wrong. The caps are in place, and the points do make a difference, albeit limited.

BACK to the subject...

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Originally Posted by EliseDee

As an avid player of Final Fantasy XI and Now Final Fantasy XIV I have appreciated the changes that have been made to improve the game play but I do no like the way the community is going with changing the core system of the game which was never a problem. As the old adage says "If it is not broken don't fix it."

First The Armory System, I enjoy having the option of wearing whatever gear for whatever class at whatever level, given yes there are down points to this but it allows me to do a few things that I enjoy. For example maximizing in a stat I could not with equipment of my class (given that I do take the stamina hit or whatever else comes with it) also on the pure aesthetics of it all and being able to look as cool as I want cross equipping gear from other classes for just plain town roaming or when I need to get my gear repaired. I don't think this needs to change. Because this was something that I thought was unique and innovative and drew me to this game a lot.

Second The point allotment system. I LIKE having a physical level, this makes the difference between a casual player who plays one class and a hardcore player who does many. Not only do you get the bonuses of more abilities but you also get the option of capping your stats on a lower level class you wish to level. Also I enjoy having the choice of how I build my character making it a lot more customizable and able to make a lot of different builds.(For example if I wanted to play a conjurer that could take a physical hit I would concentrate more on VIT PIT and MND as apposed to the PIT MND and INT since I want to heal not nuke. With the removal of the point allotment it would take that customization of your character away. Something which I think makes this game head over heels better then the way the community is attempting to take it with these poll results. Not to mention with the combination of the armory system I could use belt or boots from a gladiator to get more VIT.

So in closing I think the issue was never the core game system just some things that had to be worked on that in my opinion have been. SO lets try not to change something fully and wholly because Square is giving you the option. YOU are not a game designer you do not know the ideal behind how they wanted the game. Yes I agree that there have been a lot of things that needed change, but these two things are fine and need not be changed. And if it is changed not completely a happy medium would be much better a compromise, Don't like physical level cause you have to make your own decision in character growth then make it to where you can have an auto level option for your class when you rank up and have your points be allotted for each class. I think the armory system is fine, make as much class specific gear as you want that's great. But don't make it to where I cant wear what I want. For end game type gear like AF or things of the sort I could see how you might want to make it so only the class that can wear this wear it. So for something like that I can understand because it would be so to see a show of passage, that you did what you had to to get your AF, but anything else is just not worth it. LEAVE IT ALONE PEOPLE, you got an amazing game and now you are crying and moaning trying to turn it into WOW, which if you are here right now and not playing cataclysm shows you a lot about the game you are attempting to turn this into.

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I agree... I just don't understand why... why can I un-equip my weapon and go neutral. There no such thing of be loathing beggar (no equipment included)?? XD

If you're not at optimal rank you're going to be repairing your things five times as much

Abriael, you should probably tone it down a notch. You are coming across extremely arrogant and condescending. Its OK to be passionate about your point of view, we get it, you like the current system. You seem like a nice enough guy but this is all mostly about opinion on what people like or dislike. However, I see you posting like every other post trying to bludgeon everyone to death with your opinion. I don't agree with about 90% of anything I have seen you write (involving game mechanic) in any thread I've seen you in, but I respect it. You seem like a smart guy and write a well laid out argument, but its still just an opinion. I have not seen anything in your counter-arguments that make me think you are right. Then again everything I write is my opinion. Anyways, your opinions are not fact even if you post them 60 times in a 100 post count thread. Also, a lot of your arguments I'd agree with, if not for one small hole in your logic: people are stupid. Give them too much freedom and flexability and they will make poor decisions more often than not. Its sad but unfortunately true.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

If you're not at optimal rank you're going to be repairing your things five times as much

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True, but those who like wearing "any gear they wish regardless of the appropriateness" (I believe that was approximately stated by a few posts below the OP) wouldn't really care about things like item wear, otherwise they wouldn't be wearing inappropriate gear for whatever they were doing in the first place.

However, steering back on topic (it's so easy to end up talking about something else, isn't it :p).........

1. I don't see an issue with the Armory system as such. However, considering that SE are going to be making changes to classes and battle, the Armory system may need to be modified to match. Hanging on to it for the sake of it doesn't seem helpful. The new Dev team are making many changes (some large, some small), and I like the direction we're moving in as a whole. If they see fit to alter the Armory system to something slightly (or perhaps even completely) different, I'm willing to put my trust in them.

2. Regarding the physical system.....Again, I like the idea, but I also like the idea of being given the points to each class, so that the game "remembers" what you allocation spread is for each class (ie: you don't have to keep re-assigning every time you change class). However, I would also like to see more consequences for our actions/choices in the game because I feel we have it too easy and that being able to chop and change at a whim every 5 seconds doesn't teach us to make our decisions with a little more consideration. If the points were remembered for each class (ie: so a change would only affect one class's stats at a time), then being limited in re-mapping one's stats once they were applied somehow would be a start (you could limit the number of times that a change can be done in a set period of time...etc...).

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Originally Posted by Xzen

I don't think anyone expects people to have 3 or more classes to rank 50 or be that flexible.

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You would be mistaken. I know folks around these parts hate World of Warcraft, but it actually lends itself for this argument.

WoW relies on the trinity (tank, healer, DD). It used to be that you had to specialize your character in a talent tree, and collect gear that allowed you to perform your role. For instance, a priest could be Shadow spec, but had to equip spell damage gear to be effective. Whereas a healer needed gear that increased spell healing, and would be gimped using damage gear.

They merged the two statistics into spellpower, and homogenized gear. Then they added the ability to have a second talent spec, and changed the talent trees to allow a Shadow spec priest to use the same gear as a Holy or Discipline priest (the healing specs).

Right now, competitive raiding guilds often demand that applicants have a secondary role available, and are able to perform competitively at that role. Even in those guilds where such stipulations are optional, the applicant with the flexibility will be picked over the one without practically every time, simply because it makes the raid more adaptable.

So, long-winded example over with, people can and will expect flexibility if it is possible. It might not be right away, but as the months and years pass, not being flexible will be a hindrance and make you less desirable. It is not an exaggeration, it is human nature. I could get to work in a Fiat, but if the choice was between a Fiat and a Porsche for the same price, guess which one I'd take.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

Anyways, your opinions are not fact even if you post them 60 times in a 100 post count thread.

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The problem with this is that certain aspect are not a matter of opinion, as much as a matter of fact (facts that many refuse to see, because they completely void their arguments, but this makes them no less facts). For instance, the fact that it's lack of challenge that makes classes *appear* generic, and not flexibility, is just that, a fact.

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people are stupid. Give them too much freedom and flexability and they will make poor decisions more often than not. Its sad but unfortunately true.

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If someone isn't smart enough to be effective in a game, it's his problem and it doesn't bother me. Stupid people will manage to make poor decision even with a completely locked character.

Exactly there will always be optimal builds in games like these and while people think all this freedom to build whatever class they want is great now, wait until proper end game content come's along and people figure out what the best builds are for each class. It won't be so great when you have to level this class to 42 for this ability, this one to 38 for this one , another to 49 for this and so on.

People moan about FFXI kind of forcing you to level set sub jobs for your classes not be considered gimp, that will be nothing compared to this down the line.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Exactly there will always be optimal builds in games like these and while people think all this freedom to build whatever class they want is great now, wait until proper end game content come's along and people figure out what the best builds are for each class. It won't be so great when you have to level this class to 42 for this ability, this one to 38 for this one , another to 49 for this and so on.

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The more options are given, the more options will be viable. It's not nearly a given that there will be only ONE viable option.

In Final Fantasy XI lots of people preferred paladin tanks, lots preferred ninja tanks. People still rolled both ninjas and paladins.

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Originally Posted by EliseDee

As an avid player of Final Fantasy XI and Now Final Fantasy XIV I have appreciated the changes that have been made to improve the game play but I do no like the way the community is going with changing the core system of the game which was never a problem. As the old adage says "If it is not broken don't fix it."

First The Armory System, I enjoy having the option of wearing whatever gear for whatever class at whatever level, given yes there are down points to this but it allows me to do a few things that I enjoy. For example maximizing in a stat I could not with equipment of my class (given that I do take the stamina hit or whatever else comes with it) also on the pure aesthetics of it all and being able to look as cool as I want cross equipping gear from other classes for just plain town roaming or when I need to get my gear repaired. I don't think this needs to change. Because this was something that I thought was unique and innovative and drew me to this game a lot.

Second The point allotment system. I LIKE having a physical level, this makes the difference between a casual player who plays one class and a hardcore player who does many. Not only do you get the bonuses of more abilities but you also get the option of capping your stats on a lower level class you wish to level. Also I enjoy having the choice of how I build my character making it a lot more customizable and able to make a lot of different builds.(For example if I wanted to play a conjurer that could take a physical hit I would concentrate more on VIT PIT and MND as apposed to the PIT MND and INT since I want to heal not nuke. With the removal of the point allotment it would take that customization of your character away. Something which I think makes this game head over heels better then the way the community is attempting to take it with these poll results. Not to mention with the combination of the armory system I could use belt or boots from a gladiator to get more VIT.

So in closing I think the issue was never the core game system just some things that had to be worked on that in my opinion have been. SO lets try not to change something fully and wholly because Square is giving you the option. YOU are not a game designer you do not know the ideal behind how they wanted the game. Yes I agree that there have been a lot of things that needed change, but these two things are fine and need not be changed. And if it is changed not completely a happy medium would be much better a compromise, Don't like physical level cause you have to make your own decision in character growth then make it to where you can have an auto level option for your class when you rank up and have your points be allotted for each class. I think the armory system is fine, make as much class specific gear as you want that's great. But don't make it to where I cant wear what I want. For end game type gear like AF or things of the sort I could see how you might want to make it so only the class that can wear this wear it. So for something like that I can understand because it would be so to see a show of passage, that you did what you had to to get your AF, but anything else is just not worth it. LEAVE IT ALONE PEOPLE, you got an amazing game and now you are crying and moaning trying to turn it into WOW, which if you are here right now and not playing cataclysm shows you a lot about the game you are attempting to turn this into.

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I don't necessarily have problems with having a physical level. But the bonus points (other than vit and mind, and partially dex) just don't seem to have any effect. I have noticed as element points are distributed, I am receiving different crystals which is nice, but I think just reworking the stat point allocation would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The problem with this is that certain aspect are not a matter of opinion, as much as a matter of fact (facts that many refuse to see, because they completely void their arguments, but this makes them no less facts). For instance, the fact that it's lack of challenge that makes classes *appear* generic, and not flexibility, is just that, a fact.



If someone isn't smart enough to be effective in a game, it's his problem and it doesn't bother me. Stupid people will manage to make poor decision even with a completely locked character.

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Except that your fact is only a half truth. I agree that content is one of the problems, but the system itself is no less of a problem.

There will always be more stupid people than smart, so I'm afraid it will effect you. Limiting the out of control freedom will greatly reduce ineffective set ups and jack-of-all-trades clones.