Poll: Seamless+CopyPaste VS. Zones+Variety

I'm with making multiple zones for each area. Perhaps separating each of our current zones into 3. My idea of having a "Hyrule Field" per Camp and then branching off into different and unique areas.. For example..

Ul'Dah (Because I started here before it became Jeuno, so shut up. :P)

You venture out into the first zone, which contains Camp Blackbrush. The zone is about the same size as it always is. Nanawa Mines will still be a seamless zone. There will be the zone that branches off into the Camp Horizon map, which will contain the ferry to Limsa Lominsa. Then another Zone into Camp Drybone.

The Camp Drybone and Horizon Zones will alter in appearance, instead of having to use copy/paste from the Camp Blackbrush, they will have their own unique textures, that of which could expand the creativity of creating even more zones that these maps can branch off into.

Each zone with a camp will be like a "Hyrule Field" in this case.

If this is anything to do with potential PS3 limitations on memory then I'd go with option 2 but code the PC version to be seamless loading since they should be more than capable of handling it. The evolution of graphic quality since the release of WoW is a poor excuse as PCs have evolved too over the years to meet those demands. Also after the long initial loading when logging on, zoning takes up hardly any loading time at all on my PC and its a far cry from top of the line. So I'm sure PCs can handle it.

The only thing I hate about zoning and loading screens is the lack of transition. I'm running through the Black Shroud (a heavily forested area), hit an invisible wall, everything goes black and bam....I'm suddenly in the middle of Cortheas or Thanalan wondering how on earth I got there. It's like if someone knocked me out and dumped me in the middle of nowhere.

Maybe they could even do it like the old FF games and have you exit onto a world map.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Arent they redoing the Black Shroud? Either way, they dont have to redo the entire zone layout for places like La Noscea and Thanalan, but just add structures and other things such as the encampments to the landscape. Once this new battle system foundation gets implemented, i'd hope they would be able to move forward faster than what they've been doing now.

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I don't think they are redoing Black Shroud, I'm pretty sure that was just a mistranslation taken too far (referring to fixing the landscape to alleviate collision issues).

Anyways, I kind of wish they did separate zones with load times, but it's too late for that. This thread is pretty much pointless because at this point it just has to be chalked up as a mistake, maybe they can work something out for future zones but I don't think the current ones will ever be fixed. What a lot of people don't understand is that every MMO uses a ton of copy/pasted material. What FFXIV did was not new, personally when I was running through RIFT I couldn't stand the amount of copy/paste in that game. But most people don't notice it. Square did a poor job of hiding it, and mixed with having to tone it down because of memory issues, we have the things we have now.

Imagine if the maps were artistically drawn with a "fog of war". Do you still think we'd have even half the whining? I'm not so sure, I mean it is clearly noticeable without looking at the map, but the maps make it just that much worse. Ideally, I'd like to see them put a zone line at every "corridor" and instead of fixing the terrain, just cover it up with scenery like huts, wagons, more trees, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

"FUEL" isn't an MMORPG, it's also a different genre if it's the racing/exploring hybrid game I'm thinking of.

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The type of game it is means absolutely nothing, you of all people should know this lol. Just because Crysis is not an MMO doesnt mean CryEngine cant be used for one (Its currently being used for 2 new mmos and Aion uses CryEngine 1)

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Originally Posted by viion

The type of game it is means absolutely nothing

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This statement is so full of fail. /troll

BUT HERE IS WHY! /not troll

Because that's why the whole definition of GENRE exists! :D

EX. Racing games are not meant for exploration, they are meant to race, and be the first to cross the finish line! >_>

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Originally Posted by Nuru

This statement is so full of fail. /troll

BUT HERE IS WHY! /not troll

Because that's why the whole definition of GENRE exists! :D

EX. Racing games are not meant for exploration, they are meant to race, and be the first to cross the finish line! >_>

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Wow if you seriously think that you're a complete moron. Look at my edit to see why.

The type of game means nothing, the engine and implementation techniques can be used, (are infact are used) on a variety of games. CryEngine uses a similar technique to FUEL but not so indepth (as FUEL engine is not a public development tool).

Also Know the game, Half of the game of Fuel is not about racing at all...

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Originally Posted by viion

Wow if you seriously think that you're a complete moron. Look at my edit to see why.

The type of game means nothing, the engine and implementation techniques can be used, (are infact are used) on a variety of games. CryEngine uses a similar technique to FUEL but not so indepth (as FUEL engine is not a public development tool).

Also Know the game, Half of the game of Fuel is not about racing at all...

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Who the hell said I was talking about Fuel? >_> and why would I think I'm a moron? I think someone else is the moron, especially after reading through other threads that actually make sense and are in dire need of recognition.

Do not personally attack me, you really don't want to resort to becoming a senseless child.

I think its hopeless some dont want so see the diffrence between LotRO(someone forgot to explain those guys the meaning of "motion-capturing" -.-)/WoW/Linage2(zomg realy serious here? XD).
I advice to log in that games now after playing ff14 and if it isnt clear then... im not sure how i could explain any better then: If it was how some here want it their PC would fail at them, they would lag like hell and whenever they'd enter an opening with more objects to load (yes even a bush is an object, the more diffrent ones the worse it gets) you would freeze for a short time.
I can imagine the forum-flames in that case.. :P
Nah thanks i dont want this there are enough laggy mmos out there.
Besides, Red Dead Redemtion is not an mmo. There is a reson why a mmo with same graphics costs alot more then a single player.
Also they again do copy-paste, look at the plants. ;-)

Oh the long useless roads in the Black Shroud are to hide zoneing i found that out already but Black Shroud one are like 4x as long as the other ones...which is... i dunno that rather feels like bad level design.

Are they realy redoing it? XD I love how it looks at the water parts, but every way to the "upper" level looks same which wouldnt be bad if there werent so damn MANY of them, its hundrets! They are everywhere! Run they will get you!
...
Ok now i lost it. :D

I like the idea of it being a giant wood labyrinth but i dunno. It doesnt "feel" like a real wood.
Actually as crappy as LotRO is that dark scary wood is done quite well. Also the lanscapes are nice but they also copy-pasted alot. Everyone copy-pastes their enviroment objects and textures. There is damn good reason for that: You couldnt play it if they didnt. Might be they all just hid it a little better then SE.

I like how they made La Noscea, i realy do, the Music is nice, the weather fits the Area.

I also like Thanalan. Even the Swamp Parts look like some weird nature-occurence. Would be nice to get a story behind them at some point. The only thing about Thanalan which REALY is totaly atmosphere breaking is: Why in the nine hells is it 80% of the time im there raining? XD
It rains so much there how come its not a tropical paradise thingy jet? :P

Towards FUEL: Is there the possibility in that game that 100+ player happen to be in the same sight area of each other and will that not cause the game to crash?
How exactly is the world generated? Can you return to placed where ou previusly where? Will they look the same? That might be a trouble in a mmo where you need to be able to return to certain places which need to look the absolute same for Quest positions for example...

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Originally Posted by Nevrath

I also like Thanalan. Even the Swamp Parts look like some weird nature-occurence. Would be nice to get a story behind them at some point. The only thing about Thanalan which REALY is totaly atmosphere breaking is: Why in the nine hells is it 80% of the time im there raining? XD
It rains so much there how come its not a tropical paradise thingy jet? :P

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In regards to the rain, you might want to check out threads like this one. It doesn't always rain that much; it's just a part of an ongoing event. :D

Defiantly more zones with more variety.
Part of what I loved about XI was the fact that it was an adventure through a bunch of different places to get anywhere.

For XIV you just have to take a boat and climb up an orange hill and bam, you're in the next city.

Hm maybe i was "lucky" then when i first went there a month ago and fetched rain right away. o.o
Im not there alot so i think this event thing+my seemingly raindancing abilitys add up.. lol

I love the big seemless world. I may be the minority because I like to walk around and explore. Makes it actually feel like a world not just some instance. I've had a lot of problems with games where there is an epic scene and it is interrupted with a loading screen. Half life 2 had major problems with this when it first came out. I also find there is enough variety in the zones that you can visually tell which part of the zone you are in. There are many unique parts of the world as well that just require you to explore a little. The copy and paste complaints are just from people who like many people on this forum, are just trying to find something to complain about. It's not like they made a suburban zone here.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Well how about?

The world that we have now and future zones, that are massive seamless regions, with more environmental variety in each one.

or

A world with multiple smaller zones, with 1-2 sec. loading time in between zones, with environmental variety in each one.

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If you word it that way, then you're missing the point of the entire poll.

Based on the Tanaka quote in the OP, there is some kind of tradeoff between seamlessness and variety for this game. I realize that in an ideal situation, we should be able to have both. However, FF14 isn't able to do this for some reason, so if we really had to choose (seamlessness of variety), which would you choose.

This is supposed to be a "one or the other" type of choice, otherwise the poll looses all meaning.

Also, FYI to everyone who doesn't know already:

You know those long valleys that connect Black Brush to Drybone, Black Brush to Horizion, Skull Valley to Bald Knoll, Bloodshore to Cedarwood, etc?

Those are there to hide the rest of the environment while the game loads the next area for you. Those long, pointless valley parts are in essence, a loading zone in itself.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Also, FYI to everyone who doesn't know already:

You know those long valleys that connect Black Brush to Drybone, Black Brush to Horizion, Skull Valley to Bald Knoll, Bloodshore to Cedarwood, etc?

Those are there to hide the rest of the environment while the game loads the next area for you. Those long, pointless valley parts are in essence, a loading zone in itself.

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I just wish the other players wouldn't disappear when you cross these borders. Makes for a loss of immersion, and as I said earlier, breaks any auto-follow you might have. Lord knows how many times I've gone AFK to go to the bathroom and put myself on auto-follow, only to find myself running into a wall when I come back.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If you word it that way, then you're missing the point of the entire poll.

Based on the Tanaka quote in the OP, there is some kind of tradeoff between seamlessness and variety for this game. I realize that in an ideal situation, we should be able to have both. However, FF14 isn't able to do this for some reason, so if we really had to choose (seamlessness of variety), which would you choose.

This is supposed to be a "one or the other" type of choice, otherwise the poll looses all meaning.

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I get what you're saying, but I still don't think it's a fair poll. You're influencing the results of your poll by the way it's worded.

Basically you're saying "Do you want this big pile of smelly crap or do you want this small, beautiful fragrant flower?", obviously most people aren't going to pick a big pile of smelly crap. Also having the fonts colored also affects a person's choice on a subconscious level. Blue is perceived to be a more of a "good" color and red more of a "bad" color. Anyway I really don't think they're going to put smaller zones in any time soon, I'm sure they have most locations planned up the first expansion.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Also, FYI to everyone who doesn't know already:

You know those long valleys that connect Black Brush to Drybone, Black Brush to Horizion, Skull Valley to Bald Knoll, Bloodshore to Cedarwood, etc?

Those are there to hide the rest of the environment while the game loads the next area for you. Those long, pointless valley parts are in essence, a loading zone in itself.

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Thats why its even worse that AFTER that pointless long run the area looks kinda the same as the one you just "ran away" from :)
Thats why i think that the copy paste stuff really is just a LAME excuse to a rushed game. THere is not one bit of "love" in environment design ... and exactly that makes you forget playing a ff game at times.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

This statement is so full of fail. /troll

BUT HERE IS WHY! /not troll

Because that's why the whole definition of GENRE exists! :D

EX. Racing games are not meant for exploration, they are meant to race, and be the first to cross the finish line! >_>

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An open world game is still an open world game, despite the genre. Fuel is a racing game and open world game. If Fuel was purely a track based game, then yes, optimizations would be different. But, it's not. In fact, you could make the argument that a game like Fuel is at a disadvantage compared to FFXIV. Why? Because at the speed you traverse these environments, the distance the player travels within the few frames of load time is far greater than that of FFXIV. A greater distance means more potential objects to load.

Either Tanaka's response is just an excuse, or he has limited knowledge of how engine optimization works. I'm beginning to think it's the second reason of the two. As a game designer once said to me, "I stay as far away from the code as I can." To which, of course, he's just implying the technicalities in developing a game and the engine it runs on. I'd place my bets most designers mainly care about, "Does it work or not work? Is this possible, or not possible?"

4 zones in an MMO is a joke. This is the cheapest game world design I've ever seen. Even downloadable small games beat this easily any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I don't think they are redoing Black Shroud, I'm pretty sure that was just a mistranslation taken too far (referring to fixing the landscape to alleviate collision issues).

Anyways, I kind of wish they did separate zones with load times, but it's too late for that. This thread is pretty much pointless because at this point it just has to be chalked up as a mistake, maybe they can work something out for future zones but I don't think the current ones will ever be fixed. What a lot of people don't understand is that every MMO uses a ton of copy/pasted material. What FFXIV did was not new, personally when I was running through RIFT I couldn't stand the amount of copy/paste in that game. But most people don't notice it. Square did a poor job of hiding it, and mixed with having to tone it down because of memory issues, we have the things we have now.

Imagine if the maps were artistically drawn with a "fog of war". Do you still think we'd have even half the whining? I'm not so sure, I mean it is clearly noticeable without looking at the map, but the maps make it just that much worse. Ideally, I'd like to see them put a zone line at every "corridor" and instead of fixing the terrain, just cover it up with scenery like huts, wagons, more trees, etc.

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It seems like thats the route they are going with encampments...and I have no complaints there. I just hope they do alot more than that...and seeing how they want to tie in everything with the overall story, I guess they could do some excavation or mining collapse thing to implement new dungeons in certain areas, or even magic related stuff for possible towers or fortresses added to existing places.

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Originally Posted by Seif

4 zones in an MMO is a joke. This is the cheapest game world design I've ever seen. Even downloadable small games beat this easily any day of the week.

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The question is, would they be able to add more zones within the larger regions?

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

Actually Mack there is atleast 2 or 3 possible zones that is on the current continent that has yet to be unlocked. You need to look at the largest Eorzea map, and you will see them. One of them is the destroyed city and area around Ala Mihgo and the other is unknown city state.

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Sweet I had no idea tbh I thought the entire map was almost filled out but looking at it again I can see room for 3 or 4 more zones.

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Originally Posted by viion

The type of game it is means absolutely nothing, you of all people should know this lol. Just because Crysis is not an MMO doesnt mean CryEngine cant be used for one (Its currently being used for 2 new mmos and Aion uses CryEngine 1)

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I think the point generally was with an MMO there's a lot more data and memory management to take into consideration compared to an offline/multiplayer game. It's why no MMO yet created a "always producing world" since it's not a new technique or anything, it's just really hard to fit into MMO architecture compared to offline games.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

I love the big seemless world. I may be the minority because I like to walk around and explore. Makes it actually feel like a world not just some instance. I've had a lot of problems with games where there is an epic scene and it is interrupted with a loading screen. Half life 2 had major problems with this when it first came out. I also find there is enough variety in the zones that you can visually tell which part of the zone you are in. There are many unique parts of the world as well that just require you to explore a little. The copy and paste complaints are just from people who like many people on this forum, are just trying to find something to complain about. It's not like they made a suburban zone here.

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Yea I mean its not like plenty of people who left the game too complained about copy paste. Its not as if you can open the map and see how the map itself will show you copy pasted terrain everywhere. Thanalan for instance copy pastes its caves all over and it copy pastes its downhill paths that kinda curve into a downhill. Its there and its obvious and the world is HUGE so when I need to explore every nook and cranny to find something small that doesn't mean there is "variety".

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I think the point generally was with an MMO there's a lot more data and memory management to take into consideration compared to an offline/multiplayer game. It's why no MMO yet created a "always producing world" since it's not a new technique or anything, it's just really hard to fit into MMO architecture compared to offline games.

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CryEngine 3 does it, but that is very very new haha.

Also MMO's are not greatly over taxing than Single Players, one of the benefits of a Single Player is you dont have to pass all that data across a bandwidth (most of the time excluding multiplayer). So even though you'll have less characters, you'll have more environment objects, maybe even constructable environments and a lot more graphic/particle effects even more physics than an MMO. GW2 has destructible environments and most likely because of that (and maybe some other stuff) its poly count is a lot lower on things like mobs/players and relies a lot on textures and variation.

An MMO might have a lot of players on screen, a lot of different armours and weapons, but a single player has higher textures, more content in the area, more of all the things said above. It ends up balancing out.

I voted for 2, although I wish there was a 3rd option, scrap crystal tools and use unreal engine 3 or cryengine 3.

I liked Physic's post.

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or the third option is large zones that are seamless, but a lot more zones overall with different assets, or just have some large and some small.
But if i have to choose, id go with smaller zones with more variation.

Honestly though i dont buy the excuse, i think its just lazyness, coerthas is way less monotonous than black shroud for example. And la noscea has bridges, beaches, mountains, caves, multiple dungeons, all without direct loading

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It seems like an excuse when you already have very nicely designed zones like Coerthas, but obviously poorly designed ones like the Black Shroud and some of La Noscea. Thanalan was okay... but only if you stay out of the caves. If you've been in one cave in Thanalan you've been in them all. I think you should just have less caves, and maybe a few, very different, large ones rather than a lot of the same small ones.

The reason for only giving two options is also something I kind of disagree with. It gives a false sense of contribution and doesn't really get at the heart of the problem. I have this same problem with the survey's that were laid out during the beginning of the year. It seemed like the changes were already decided upon and then given to us in a multiple choice question format to give the illusion of choice.

The purpose for the forums is discussion and loose brainstorming from the community. This type of questioning seems only appropriate for a player survey controlled by devs and undermines the purpose for the forums.

Not saying that you don't have the freedom to create it. I just don't see the use for it considering the more dynamic option of a discussion based proposal.

I do like the citing of sources in the Rentahamster's OP.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I just don't see the use for it considering the more dynamic option of a discussion based proposal.

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We've been having that discussion throughout this whole thread. The poll was just to get a baseline of opinion.

Hm so how many of you worked at an mmo? And if so which? Because that "we can totaly have both" still is just like saying "Hey guys i have no clue at all but i just go troll some forums cos i can".
I tried to explain but i think its hopeless some guys dont even care. Most just want to behave like they totaly know how it works while probably dont even knowing how to code a freaking text adventure. Or what the hell a GDD and TDD is.

Everyone who claims such nonsense has absolutely no idea what the hell he/she is asking from the developers.
Thats like "ow please turn my water into wine k thx bye." XD
Some here wouldnt recognized the diffrence of low poly vs high poly if its thrown right into their face. Not because of stupidity, out of pure ignorance and the fun of trolling.

XD

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Originally Posted by Mack

Yea I mean its not like plenty of people who left the game too complained about copy paste. Its not as if you can open the map and see how the map itself will show you copy pasted terrain everywhere. Thanalan for instance copy pastes its caves all over and it copy pastes its downhill paths that kinda curve into a downhill. Its there and its obvious and the world is HUGE so when I need to explore every nook and cranny to find something small that doesn't mean there is "variety".

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If your problem is the map, then don't look at the map. Or if you had to look at the map to see copy and paste, it just proves my point about variety. Your argument about what I said about variety doesn't even make sense. The areas are built in enough variety that they appear different, even though they may have some of the same "parts".
What I mean is the complaints about the world being so copy and pasted are overblown, as Eorzea has amazing environmental detail that can be enjoyed and explored. Especially when there are much more pressing issues about this game. One of my favourite parts is being able to see the towns far away then being able to walk into them seamlessly.
All they have to do is add some of your landmarks to the already created zones and release new ones. But I think they should be done seamlessly.

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If your problem is the map, then don't look at the map. Or if you had to look at the map to see copy and paste, it just proves my point about variety.

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My problem isn't the map, I see the copy paste everywhere, it has nothing to do with the map, I was just telling you that you can see the copy pasted regions clearly on the map. The entirety of the regions are bland and empty, that is my problem, I wouldn't care about the repeated "sections" had the areas had *something* in them.

Yes i agree Masamune, too bad im quite low level and recently was eaten by a giant toxic toad while exploring. XD

*edit*: I think i might have the wrong definition of empty cos i didnt found any spot which is empty....

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Originally Posted by Nevrath

Yes i agree Masamune, too bad im quite low level and recently was eaten by a giant toxic toad while exploring. XD

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It's not so bad when you're low level. I remember being in awe at the environments back in beta. That was until I noticed how much if it is the same, and is still the same, 7 months later.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

If your problem is the map, then don't look at the map. Or if you had to look at the map to see copy and paste, it just proves my point about variety. Your argument about what I said about variety doesn't even make sense. The areas are built in enough variety that they appear different, even though they may have some of the same "parts".
What I mean is the complaints about the world being so copy and pasted are overblown, as Eorzea has amazing environmental detail that can be enjoyed and explored. Especially when there are much more pressing issues about this game. One of my favourite parts is being able to see the towns far away then being able to walk into them seamlessly.
All they have to do is add some of your landmarks to the already created zones and release new ones. But I think they should be done seamlessly.

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would that this were true, thanalan isnt the worst offender, go to the black shroud it is literally built of the exact same structures, over passes, etc.

Its not the copy and paste thats the problem, its the technique of copy and paste. You can make pictures out of letters, but these maps arent often pictures, they are just repeated motifs. but all of this is a distraction really the issue at hand is basically this

which is of greater appeal,
variety
seamlessness
when choices have to be made, which one should be favored in making the decision.

there will be a mixture of both, and balancing, but which one is more important, which would you sacrifice for the other when that choice comes into play, that is the question.

Well but i do realize the copy paste i just dont mind cos i have at least a dimm clue about the whole technical side of what i am seeing. ;-)

*edit*: And ye the black shroud is a little poorly copy-pasted. I guess they either wanted the feeling that you get lost cos everything looks the same like such woods often are or they ran out of time since it might have been the most time intense to build.

Hi Ladies,

sounds like many of you have actually good experience in the Game Development Business, that's great cause so many of you really sounds that they know what they talking about.

So you guys knowing the different stages from Pre-Production till Gold Master, creating TDD, GDD, Style Documents an so on.

Actually its not the fault of the Developer Team, it is the fault of us Players the guys who complain about every crap they find. Hell be honest to yourself how many of you scream in agony, when they hear your fav game is delayed ? Thats mainly the reason why Dev Team use things like copy paste. Every content needs to be created, and every creation takes time. Believe me the last weeks / days of such a big release like FFXIV can be hell, crunch time all the ways to gold, and on the last days there are ways more importent things to fix copy-paste looking maps. And later they had to work on the basic flows of the Game Design, so there's not time to fix crap like that.

Besides most of you guys forgot that FFXIV is planned as a multi-plattform title therefor lies the technical problem and the limitation on the ps3 part, think about that.

I think nobody who never got in touch with process of professional game development can really judge these things.

Get familiar with topics like polycount, memory management, asynchronous/synchronous network communication, multi-plattform development.

And we can talk again

greetz from another
game dev slave

Here's a compromise, let's do what FFXI does. Have small zones, but have your movement speed so slow that it's like you're walking in a massive zone.

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Originally Posted by Legba

Hi Ladies,

sounds like many of you have actually good experience in the Game Development Business, that's great cause so many of you really sounds that they know what they talking about.

So you guys knowing the different stages from Pre-Production till Gold Master, creating TDD, GDD, Style Documents an so on.

Actually its not the fault of the Developer Team, it is the fault of us Players the guys who complain about every crap they find. Hell be honest to yourself how many of you scream in agony, when they hear your fav game is delayed ? Thats mainly the reason why Dev Team use things like copy paste. Every content needs to be created, and every creation takes time. Believe me the last weeks / days of such a big release like FFXIV can be hell, crunch time all the ways to gold, and on the last days there are ways more importent things to fix copy-paste looking maps. And later they had to work on the basic flows of the Game Design, so there's not time to fix crap like that.

Besides most of you guys forgot that FFXIV is planned as a multi-plattform title therefor lies the technical problem and the limitation on the ps3 part, think about that.

I think nobody who never got in touch with process of professional game development can really judge these things.

Get familiar with topics like polycount, memory management, asynchronous/synchronous network communication, multi-plattform development.

And we can talk again

greetz from another
game dev slave

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i think you don't have to be a programmer or need to have huge experience if you look at what other developers/companies are capable of, also cross platform (its nothing unusual). Thats why people using other games as examples. A lot of games playable on pc and ps3 made graphical changes to fit the ps3 or got improved to please the pc users. Rushing out a game that didnt change much from alpha to beta and stayed in beta at launch, and not listening to anythign the people in beta and alpha were telling them, has nothing to do with "US" wanting the game asap.

Usually its the management that wants to make money. And they wanted to release it in a time where no other competitors released an mmo (at least not the "high-hope" mmos like tera, GW2, star wars, etc. )

How many people are crying about GW2, starwars, or none mmos like diablos to get released... and does that help?
A good developer/publisher knows where a rushed game ends... its nothing new.

You cant now how to make a good cheesecake if you never made one, never saw an oven, never saw a tool to mix up dough and dont know what the indegridients are.
I didnt knew you work for SE and actually saw live whats going on there at release. You FEEL like they didnt listen to you. You THINK you know what the release criteria are. But here you are and dont even try to learn about it before you state such things you can impossibly know.

Do you even know which kind of people count as the "managment"?

*edit*: But still you can know how a cheesecake looks and love to eat it. :P

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Originally Posted by Nevrath

You cant now how to make a good cheesecake if you never made one, never saw an oven, never saw a tool to mix up dough and dont know what the indegridients are.
I didnt knew you work for SE and actually saw live whats going on there at release. You FEEL like they didnt listen to you. You THINK you know what the release criteria are. But here you are and dont even try to learn about it before you state such things you can impossibly know.

Do you even know which kind of people count as the "managment"?

*edit*: But still you can know how a cheesecake looks and love to eat it. :P

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so whos fault is it then?
If i make open beta /closed alpha and don't replie to shit. Whats the point then? And again, compared to other mmos before launch, at open beta, etc. people get answers and have proper communication.

The reason why these forums are packed with posts is the lack of communication, so thats why people assume, since we don't really get answers, usually more ???

I don't need to know how to make a cheesecake to know that it cant be as hard since a lot of competitors know how to make it... thats my point. I never said i know what goes on exactly at SE HQ or whereever. And I DONT CARE lol
Im the consumer, and seeing how other companies do their job comparing how SE does their job (perhaps they are just bad in communication- i hope so-) i think its fair if people assuming and guessing around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nevrath

You cant now how to make a good cheesecake if you never made one, never saw an oven, never saw a tool to mix up dough and dont know what the indegridients are.

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I don't have to be a chef to recognize the sour taste it left in my mouth.