Please get rid of Stamina

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinko

I know exatcly what you were refering too, mister condescendance.

My CON at 47 has very similar MP to my WHM in 11 at 75, its not a huge difference, yes they are there for lastability but thats stating the plan obvious, FF11 didn't have stamina nor does most MMO's out there (outside of specific classes) so lets not pretend that its a needed mechanic to make the game more challenging.

---

Actually i think stamina is just the manual mechanic version of our Auto-Attack feature we have in ffxi. Since the game was designed to be manual input oriented, you have to have some kind of limit to your actions.
Now with that said, I will agree that I think MP should not be tied into the stamina bar, but the stamina bar should still exist. I only say that, because MP is already on a cast timer, it makes hardly any since to have MP on 2 separate timers.

I wouldn't even mind if they dumped the MP cast timer, for the already existent stamina timer. At-least it would make since with the rest of the battle system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinko

I know exatcly what you were refering too, mister condescendance.

---

I don't believe anything I said showed any sign of "condescendence".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinko

so your lets not pretend that its a needed mechanic to make the game more challenging

---

I'm not entirely sure I understand what it is you're saying there (it wasn't very good english, sorry).
But from what I am guessing you meant: I don't remember saying stamina was a "needed" mechanic to make it more challenging.

If the devs rework the current battle system in to something more intuitive and dynamic than the current one then that's great.

In the future please try and pick your tone of typing better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

If you take away stamina and add a recast time, isn't that EXACTLY the same system as we have currently?

Think about it.

No, really, think about it.

---

Thinks about it ...

Thinks some more...

... hmm is this a trick question ..

Oh wait I know, we already have recast timers.

Do I win anything ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

Jinko, why exactly do you want to remove stamina? It adds another layer of skill and strategy. It adds another layer of things to pay attention to, how exactly is this bad? It's not, at all. You say "Why do mages have to manage stamina and mp, why do melee have to manage TP and stamina. Well, maybe because it makes the game/combat system a lot more interesting?
Let's not dumb down the game anymore please.

---

Ok I'll half bite.

First explain to me how not having stamina in FF11 made that game dumbed down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

Actually i think stamina is just the manual mechanic version of our Auto-Attack feature we have in ffxi. Since the game was designed to be manual input oriented, you have to have some kind of limit to your actions.

---

You are correct, but thing is we know that auto-attack is coming back so does it not make the purpose of stamina useless if we can no longer spam basic attacks ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adol

I'm not entirely sure I understand what it is you're saying there (it wasn't very good english, sorry).

---

Indeed, thats why I edited it, although all you had to do was remove the word "your" and it would make perfect sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adol

If the devs rework the current battle system in to something more intuitive and dynamic than the current one then that's great.

---

Didn't Yoshi-p suggest just that in his last 2 letters ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adol

In the future please try and pick your tone of typing better.

---

Yes Mom ! :(

Yeah, but if you take away stamina, recast timers go through the roof to re balance the system.

Andd..... We wind up with every other MMO in the world.

Fine with me if thats the goal I guess.

Stamina allows for shorter cooldowns on abilities because you must choose between them by using your "stamina"

The alternative is that there is no "stamina" and you can use anything you want instantly, BUT the cooldowns are doubled because they can be used back to back to back to back... And the strategy goes out the door because the only "strat" becomes "waiting till X is off cooldown and then use it instantly"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinko

Thinks about it ...

Thinks some more...

... hmm is this a trick question ..

Oh wait I know, we already have recast timers.

Do I win anything ?



Ok I'll half bite.

First explain to me how not having stamina in FF11 made that game dumbed down.



You are correct, but thing is we know that auto-attack is coming back so does it not make the purpose of stamina useless if we can no longer spam basic attacks ?

---

Yea, this was said assuming we kept the stamina, or the original system. An auto battle feature is in the works, so stamina no longer has any meaning now. It's like stacking 2 different systems on top of each-other. I don't have any problem with stamina, and frankly I like the manual input in xiv, it felt new. But, if we have auto-battle, stamina can't work with it, unless they create some extremely abstract method of using it, and I don't really see that happening.

I can see where Stamina can be viewed as a tactical element, but its potential is somewhat limited to party-play (in solo-play it just becomes a bore/"grind gate"). For instance, it can be good when you need to conserve Stamina to quickly kill a mob or use a set of abilities required for a specific scenario.

Personally I think they can do alot better. The system is very basic, can easily become a meaningless frustration on longer fights, and really doesn't have accompanying in-game encounters that truly capitalize on it.

Ultimately, I hope they substitute it for a system that is more geared towards group-coordination of abilities to tackle difficult fight mechanics (in addition to adding more depth to class abilities and ability rotations). I personally think that this route contains more possibilities, as well as provides a small goal/challenge for players to achieve without authentic frustration.

I am imagining that in the battle revision patch, they are going to be slowing down stamina generation and making standard attacks use no stamina (and add auto attack) special attacks will use far less stamina.

Stamina costs will be revised for all skills because of the reduction in stamina gain.

Mages will be using stamina for skills only and MP for nukes only.

That's just my theory though, it should hold up assuming what they said they wanted was to be able to allow for auto attack and conversation, as well as have the decisions you make in party play have more of an impact in battle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adol

Okay, so now you have fixed your typing error I'll have to ask a question.

Just what is it you're referring to when you say "that its a needed mechanic". Do you mean the stamina bar. If so, aren't you somewhat agreeing with me? This is odd since I thought you were trying to disagree with me.

---

I also said lets not pretend. :S

Just to be clear I want the removal of the stamina guage, I thought that was clear.

Stamina is unique, and it is good, most people dont realize it because they steamroll battles, or ignore a lot of thier potential.

Stamina is not like tp, tp is awarded for the more basic actions you take, it is essentially like a rage, or build up system, you build up a pool of skills and you can use them as you see fit, in order to get tp, you need to be close to the mob, and you need to be attacking the mob.

Stamina allows many tactical things to occur

stamina allows you to control your your dps/amount of things you can do. without stamina it is always best to be doing something, anything, waiting is always bad and should be avoided

Stamina allows for positional combat, it allows you to run away from an aoe, run back in, and take no hit to your damage done, you choose when to attack, and at what pace.
It allows you to reposition yourself in battle, lancer can move out of aoe range after every hit, or repositon itself to maximize directional aoe/line of sight, without it being a waste of dps.

Stamina allows you to watch your enemy and maximize your damage/skill use, when it is best to do so, without stamina, waiting for a tp move, or for an evade to happen, or a parry is you sacrificing all of the actions you could have made, with stamina, it is waiting for the best time to strike, for example

pugilist is tanking a powerful monster, he uses pummel to fill his tp, light strike to get evasion, featherfoot, and he waits, his stamina bar is now at 1/3rd and slowly regenerating, the mob does nothing, then it attacks, he evades and follows with a jarring strike stunning the mob, imediately followed by a concussive blow, raging strike victimize.
he has used his stamina effeciently to maximize his damage without wasted attacks, and play a defensive role, he chose when to do actions, and did not waste any time at all. without stamina, he would have been wasting time

its not the same as recasts, recast the idea is to use a skill as soon as you can so it can be available sooner to maximize recast, you want to use a strong skill as much as possible, waiting is wasting the amount of times you could do whatever skill it is. for example say i have a powerful attack on recast, every second that i do not use this skill when the time is up, i am lessening my damage. recast gaming creates rotations as your best form of doing any actions, use the best skills as often as possible, mix in smaller skills while recast is down.

mp is your total pool, it functions totally different than stamina, it doesnt regenerate except through specific actions


in all honesty this combat system is really good, and its pretty deep, people are just beginning to scratch the surface of its potential, and it allows even people untrained to get by, but people who take it further can do great things. The biggest problem in this games combat, is not the combat itself, or the skills, the problem is we have so little cause to use our full powers. Its the low level mobs, and non grouped monsters

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I am imagining that in the battle revision patch, they are going to be slowing down stamina generation and making standard attacks use no stamina (and add auto attack) special attacks will use far less stamina.

Stamina costs will be revised for all skills because of the reduction in stamina gain.

Mages will be using stamina for skills only and MP for nukes only.

That's just my theory though, it should hold up assuming what they said they wanted was to be able to allow for auto attack and conversation, as well as have the decisions you make in party play have more of an impact in battle.

---

This was something I thought about when they announced they were putting auto-battle in. However, when you look at this equation you will see something extremely unneeded.

Stamina = time - Stamina was designed to limit the actions of players, this falls under the same category as "cool-down timers"
If we look at ffxiv's current system, we have cool-down timers, and stamina involved at the same time.
This is a double whammy of limits, and only makes since, because players had the ability to affect how much stamina they generate over time.

Now if we apply Auto-battle, we have to loose one of these limits, mainly because we can no longer affect our stamina over time variable.
My honest opinion would be to loose the over used "cool-down timers".
Put everything into stamina, mainly because it's new, and original in comparison to other mmo's.