The Echo - Mechanics and Boundaries

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Whatever the starshower originally meant was very different from Dalamud. It wasn't until after release that Yoshida-san asked the lore team if they could "bring it down," so I'm still on the fence as to what's up with it, sadly.

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Pretty much. IIRC, one of the interviews suggested that the original plan was to at some point in the future visit Dalamud ala-FFIV. While the starshower may look a little bit like Dalamud's meteors, we have no reason to believe they were the same thing.

Unless... you know... retcon...

Just went through the whole Gridanian story and I think you're right. You first see Fye in an Echo instigated by adult Khrimm, though the game uses the same character models for the the two children who ask you to escort them in the present and Fye/Khrimm in the past, so I can see where that would trip some people up.

Fye then seems to recognize you enough to open up to you in an Echo instigated by the carpenter lalafell. One could write this one off, but then the instant you delve into a different echo, this time instigated by the padjal at the CNJ guild, she recognizes you as friendly and calls you by name.

Clearly your presence in the echo has cumulative effects and is thus probably the true past, not someone's individual memory of it, not a copy of it, but the real, actual moment in the book of history.

Interesting side-notes: No horns aside from that which the Moogle carries, which seems inconsequential. No obvious ascian activity aside from (possibly) the shadow which takes out several Wailers. Yet again, the archons realize your power due to the event of an echo within an echo.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Interesting side-notes: No horns aside from that which the Moogle carries, which seems inconsequential. No obvious ascian activity aside from (possibly) the shadow which takes out several Wailers. Yet again, the archons realize your power due to the event of an echo within an echo.

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I came to the same conclusions.
Farrimond's unit being attacked by a "shadow" is the closest we come to what might be an ascian reference.

As much as I'm in the "you're changing the past" camp, there are still some holes with the idea.

We've been told that an axe-swing in an Echo wont cause a hurricane in the present, but what of the flow of information backwards through time? Why doesn't it happen? Is it that if you attempt to make a change that would affect the timeline, you're auto-booted from that Echo? So folk can have a new memory of you, but as it didn't affect any of their actual actions or decisions, you were able to make those minor changes?

Hm.

As an aside, maybe the multi-shtola scene isn't due to The Echo. Actually, re-watching it, there's nothing at all to suggest that it is an Echo power. This could just be another high-level conjurer spell (eg, mirror image). I'd appreciate if you could point me to a scene where Y'shtola uses her own Echo power though!

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Originally Posted by Catapult

I came to the same conclusions.
Farrimond's unit being attacked by a "shadow" is the closest we come to what might be an ascian reference.

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How could it be an Ascian reference, if Ascians are known to be without shadow?

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

We've been told that an axe-swing in an Echo wont cause a hurricane in the present, but what of the flow of information backwards through time? Why doesn't it happen? Is it that if you attempt to make a change that would affect the timeline, you're auto-booted from that Echo? So folk can have a new memory of you, but as it didn't affect any of their actual actions or decisions, you were able to make those minor changes?

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I'm so glad you asked. Have a read of this and tell me what you think.

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Originally Posted by Hermit of the Wood

You, there! Can you hear me? Wake up, now!
Bloody Echo's rattled him good and proper. I'd better find someone who knows the poor bugger.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

How could it be an Ascian reference, if Ascians are known to be without shadow?

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Because the ascian is the shadow.

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Originally Posted by Farrimond

The shadows... They came to life...

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Originally Posted by Catapult

I'm so glad you asked. Have a read of this and tell me what you think.

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It makes me think that the Echo isn't a choice that the player makes; it's time-travel, but Hydaelyn herself is ensuring you only get to see/act in the ways she desires in the past. Did anyone ever click 'no' when the game asked if you wanted to use the power of the Echo? Does it just not let you proceed until you do? There was something a few weeks back that made me think that Hydaelyn was riding with you during the Echoes, but I can't quite remember. This fits with that.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Because the ascian is the shadow.

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Not seeing the connection. Ascians aren't shadows; they're beings without shadows (well at least Travanchet is). Personally, I think that means they're a sort of hologram made of Void. Dammit, Anonymoose's technique of writing small ideas in small font size has fully taken root.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

We've been told that an axe-swing in an Echo wont cause a hurricane in the present, but what of the flow of information backwards through time? Why doesn't it happen?

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I imagine it's just the metaphysics of it. The conclusions I'm drawing from Gridania's storyline, at this point in time, at least, lead me to take Ferne's words much more literally the other options. If correct, this means that while you are visiting the actual point in time, the choices that were made, the outcomes they led to, and the future it creates are not up for grabs. The two things Ferne is stating are related, but are not the same thing.

From the quests we've seen, "to experience and interact," seems to mean that you can insert yourself into the story but not in a way that changes the plot. Basically, you can access the scene's empirical information and alter how it is understood by those in it, but not how it will play out. However, "an axe-swing in an Echo wont cause a hurricane in the present" is simply a built-in protection against chaos theory (specifically the part of it known as the butterfly effect, which I assume also protects FFXIV from Ashton Kutcher) so that these small changes will not accumulate.

Perhaps you can change how characters understand or relate to one another, or how they understand the situation as it unfolds, but will absolutely not cause a snowball effect, like, for instance, you make friends with one person so they ditch lunch with their other friend who gets sad and goes off into the shroud alone and takes it out on some opo-opos whose tribe flees for safety and ends up outside a Garlean base where they leave their half-eaten trash everywhere and some of it gets stuck in the gears of a Juggernaut on its rounds and then when it eventually returns to Garlemald for maintenance, the trash is pulled out of the gears and His Radiance shows up to raise troop morale on-base and slips on one of those opo-opo's tossed banana peels and impales himself on his gun-croissant. That probably won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Actually, re-watching it, there's nothing at all to suggest that it is an Echo power. This could just be another high-level conjurer spell (eg, mirror image).

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Nah, I'm actually reaching the same conclusion. The more little problems I solve (though, there's still no dev. confirmation on any of my conclusions, so take Lominsa's with a grain of salt), the less I think Y'shtola has many, if any, special powers. I think she's just more serious about her job than the others. Though, can you imagine if they really were just echo-jump investigating huge chunks of history? It'd be like Thancred's on some sort of "hook up with a girl from each era" tour de histoirie.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

How could it be an Ascian reference, if Ascians are known to be without shadow?

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Well, that's what their name means, but as Catapult said, right now it seems like they are the shadows. Cross-language, they're referred to as "those who have eaten their own shadow" (shadoweaters). What this means, I don't know - but from the way Travanchet evanesced into the air like that, I'm betting it's some sort of "you are what you eat" kind of word association.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

It makes me think that the Echo isn't a choice that the player makes; it's time-travel, but Hydaelyn herself is ensuring you only get to see/act in the ways she desires in the past.

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This is possible, but then why would it boot you out the times it does? The Sharlayans already know the information they gained from the "echo within an echo," they're just seeing it first hand. The only assumption I can make is that perhaps it is the fact that we are alerting the Sharlayans to our individual existence years before we actually matter and showing them about the Echo's rise before its really risen, thus affecting how they will approach the present... but that is not a very Occam's Razor type of assumption compared to the idea that echoception (or, if you prefer, "Yo doblyn, I herd you like echoes") is just super bad for you. You probably just can't handle the strain.

Coming out of lurking hole on this one again... AHH ITS BRIGHT OUT HERE!

Going to possibly cause some paradoxical effects with with suggestion so I apologize.
If we do literally go into the past... we would usually take away time being linear unless we throw in the possibilty of Destiny and gods that aren't subject to our physical laws.
So if it was always our destiny to go into the past and be there at those echo moments, nothing was changed, we were always there since that moment existed. Therefore the axe-swing in an Echo wont cause a hurricane in the present. Hope that made sense.
I'm sure there are 1000 examples of why this wouldn't work... but I thought I'd share it anyway.

Shame you're not on the localization team Moose. You write some pretty hilarious stuff.

See: Ashton Kutcher and the Emperor's Banana Peel

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Shame you're not on the localization team Moose.

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Also, he would be able to sleep more soundly at night due to KNOWING.