The Evolved combat is needed

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Originally Posted by Valence

I actually think bringing PvP into PvE would literally save PvE, but that cannot happen with only changes on the job's side else we just end up playing pvp on dummies, which is incredibly boring (see Shatter).
PvP is engaging because it's not all about spitting out damage on a target that barely interacts while dancing around dodging mechanics totally unrelated to what your job is doing.
PvE would need a serious rework to bring actual variables to its gameplay that do interact with the jobs in meaningful and unique ways.

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That is indeed the problem. In order for evolved mode to work PvE fights need to be faster more chaotic (and honestly the GCD dropped down to at least 1.5 sec if not 1 sec like WoW and GW2). Unfortunately, because Reborn will be sticking around and will be able to complete content too I find this highly unlikely to be something that happens.

I do not think Evolved Mode is really about job identity.

I think it is more about keeping some job flavor.

For example, if we say Dragoon has dragon flavor or directional attacks like flank or rear, Monk also has positionals. So what really separates Monk from Dragoon? Is it only the rotation?

To me, rotation alone is not enough.

This is the same issue with Warrior and Dark Knight. They can end up feeling too similar, with only rotation changes separating them, while the skills and general structure still feel very close.

That is the part that concerns me.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

I do not think Evolved Mode is really about job identity.

I think it is more about keeping some job flavor.

For example, if we say Dragoon has dragon flavor or directional attacks like flank or rear, Monk also has positionals. So what really separates Monk from Dragoon? Is it only the rotation?

To me, rotation alone is not enough.

This is the same issue with Warrior and Dark Knight. They can end up feeling too similar, with only rotation changes separating them, while the skills and general structure still feel very close.

That is the part that concerns me.

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I see your point but I don't think positionals define any of the melee's unique flavor, because they all have them. A dragoons flavor is their jumps, a monk their forms, Ninja their mudras, etc. It is yet to be seen how the melees differ from each other but based off of new dragoon they've put more focus on jumps for dragoon, and one even ignores the next positional, similar to true north but just a single action, and they had 3 stacks of it iirc. I agree in not wanting them to all feel all the same but I don't think any of them are going to lose their positionals, melee need something to have to pay attention to. I'm just basing this next point off of how PvP jobs were formed (same dev) but I'm pretty confident that all the jobs will feel pretty unique in how they function and they won't feel too similar while also showcasing more of their flavor and job identity. It's still pretty wait and see but your base concern is also mine, I don't want all the jobs to feel the exact same when playing.

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Originally Posted by HammAndCheese

I see your point but I don't think positionals define any of the melee's unique flavor, because they all have them. A dragoons flavor is their jumps, a monk their forms, Ninja their mudras, etc. It is yet to be seen how the melees differ from each other but based off of new dragoon they've put more focus on jumps for dragoon, and one even ignores the next positional, similar to true north but just a single action, and they had 3 stacks of it iirc. I agree in not wanting them to all feel all the same but I don't think any of them are going to lose their positionals, melee need something to have to pay attention to. I'm just basing this next point off of how PvP jobs were formed (same dev) but I'm pretty confident that all the jobs will feel pretty unique in how they function and they won't feel too similar while also showcasing more of their flavor and job identity. It's still pretty wait and see but your base concern is also mine, I don't want all the jobs to feel the exact same when playing.

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I agree with you that positionals alone do not define melee identity.

Maybe my example was not the clearest. What I meant is that flavor by itself is not enough if the actual gameplay structure still feels too similar.

Dragoon having more focus on jumps is a good direction. Monk having forms and Ninja having mudras are also good examples of job identity when they actually affect how the job plays.

I was also hoping for something deeper around how each melee job interacts with the enemy’s defenses. Not just “all melee have positionals,” but different ways for each job to break or pressure the enemy’s armor/defense in order to activate certain skills or rewards.

That kind of system would make melee identity feel more gameplay-driven, not only based on positionals or visual flavor.

I do not think they showed something like that yet, but maybe we will see more in the next keynote or future job previews.

My concern is mainly when identity becomes only visual or thematic, while the gameplay underneath still feels too close between jobs.

So I agree with your main point. I also do not want all jobs to feel the exact same when playing. I just hope Evolved Mode gives jobs different gameplay logic, not only stronger flavor.

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Originally Posted by StarryVera

Except they aren't? BRD is actively losing utility, tying effects to damage limits use and forces them to be used at awful times because you have to keep the GCD rolling to do anything, and if you are overcapping and not collecting all 3 coda you are trolling by choosing to do less damage (the only thing that matters in this game). If the effects were separate from the songs, sure, but they sure as hell aren't from what we saw.

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I kinda feel like that unfortunately goes back to feed into the excel spreadsheet planning of every savage fight in XIV: find the rotation that works best for a fight and memorize it to death, much like you'd memorize when you use your mitigations, or when you can use your instant casts for uptime.

Boring, but a lot of raiders like this so...

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

That is indeed the problem. In order for evolved mode to work PvE fights need to be faster more chaotic (and honestly the GCD dropped down to at least 1.5 sec if not 1 sec like WoW and GW2). Unfortunately, because Reborn will be sticking around and will be able to complete content too I find this highly unlikely to be something that happens.

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I don't think they need to get necessarily faster or even more chaotic (even though more randomness would definitely be appreciated). If there is still no variables beyond damage that the jobs can interact with, then it's still gonna result in everything being designed as a hammer to hit the exact same nail on the head.

I don't want to suddenly have the GCD go to spastic levels of carpal tunnel to even emulate some manner of complexity. If people want that they already have jobs on a 2s GCD or less, or jobs literally spamming OGCDs like VPR on top of it. But it doesn't even start addressing the real issues.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I kinda feel like that unfortunately goes back to feed into the excel spreadsheet planning of every savage fight in XIV: find the rotation that works best for a fight and memorize it to death, much like you'd memorize when you use your mitigations, or when you can use your instant casts for uptime.

Boring, but a lot of raiders like this so...



I don't think they need to get necessarily faster or even more chaotic (even though more randomness would definitely be appreciated). If there is still no variables beyond damage that the jobs can interact with, then it's still gonna result in everything being designed as a hammer to hit the exact same nail on the head.

I don't want to suddenly have the GCD go to spastic levels of carpal tunnel to even emulate some manner of complexity. If people want that they already have jobs on a 2s GCD or less, or jobs literally spamming OGCDs like VPR on top of it. But it doesn't even start addressing the real issues.

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A 1 second global cool down is hardly spastic. In fact it is pretty much industry standard. FF14 has always had a pain point of combat being ungodly slow. Iirc the MMO with the next slowest GCD is Runescape at 1.5 seconds. If anything, this is the time to bring FF14 in line with other MMOs.

I am really unsure about Evolved right now. I need to see more jobs within the same role so I can actually compare them. Seeing one MT, one melee DPS, one ranged DPS, and one healer honestly told me really little in terms of how class identity may be helped.

It is simply dumbing down for the Switch.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

This is the same issue with Warrior and Dark Knight. They can end up feeling too similar, with only rotation changes separating them, while the skills and general structure still feel very close.

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These two used to feel pretty different from one another, a long time ago. Then SE turned DRK into WAR2, which itself was turned into PLD2 a few patches earlier.

Point is, I'm not entirely convinced that we 'need' Evolved Mode as a system, to have individuality in the Jobs

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

I agree with you that positionals alone do not define melee identity.

Maybe my example was not the clearest. What I meant is that flavor by itself is not enough if the actual gameplay structure still feels too similar.

Dragoon having more focus on jumps is a good direction. Monk having forms and Ninja having mudras are also good examples of job identity when they actually affect how the job plays.

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This is the important part, they need to actually play differently.
I could not care less how many jumps Dragoon has if they're all just fire-and-forget damage oGCDs. When the only differentiating factor is how the jobs look visually while going through the same motions we have a problem.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

These two used to feel pretty different from one another, a long time ago. Then SE turned DRK into WAR2, which itself was turned into PLD2 a few patches earlier.

Point is, I'm not entirely convinced that we 'need' Evolved Mode as a system, to have individuality in the Jobs

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I think not even the devs are convinced we "need" Evolved mode, which is one of the two reasons they're keeping the old system around for now.