PF is not just bad at times, it's unfair (rant)

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Envoyé par Miradelle

Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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fwiw: aidorouge has been trapped in stb for years and still there in 2026, but that doesn't stop him from posting about content he has not done and will never do because of the 1st part because he has mentioned he hated dying for the first time during dungeons so he quit the MSQ...

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Envoyé par Miradelle

Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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yes they do

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Envoyé par CCheshire

fwiw: aidorouge has been trapped in stb for years and still there in 2026, but that doesn't stop him from posting about content he has not done and will never do because of the 1st part because he has mentioned he hated dying for the first time during dungeons so he quit the MSQ...

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I've finished Shadowbringers actually, but it only further rubbed in that the game keeps getting harder but I'm not getting better so I'm not really sure what to make of Endwalker and beyond. But even if I speedran all the way through Dawntrail tomorrow, what difference would it make? It's not like my opinion on the side content I can't do is going to miraculously change. I'm not going to suddenly be Savage ready because I survived Wuk Lamat, lol.

And it wasn't dying in dungeons that was demoralizing, it was dying in MSQ solo duties, the supposedly "most brain dead" content of all where I was getting stuck for a while every time the game decided I needed to play as some other NPC, especially any where I needed to be the healer because its not a role I normally do. Death Unto Dawn was legitimately obnoxious to complete.

Anyway, I already know I'd be part of the players that would be holding people back if I ever attempted to do hardcore content, and even said as much that people shouldn't be forced to deal with such players, so if kicking and blacklisting is the only option then I guess that's how it is (or in my case I don't show up to begin with). I just question how well the PF system works when there's fewer and fewer capable people doing the content, or that if trying to pug it seems like an awful idea, the OP would be better off finding a static.

In Heavensward it was quite easy to filter out the majority of bad actors, but then again that was pre-cross world server/world visit stuff existing. Only thing I hated was that the PFs could take hours to fill.
Statics are sort of the only solution to people overexaggerating their progression points, but not everyone can fit into those schedules unfortunately.

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Envoyé par Aidorouge

I've finished Shadowbringers actually, but it only further rubbed in that the game keeps getting harder but I'm not getting better so I'm not really sure what to make of Endwalker and beyond. But even if I speedran all the way through Dawntrail tomorrow, what difference would it make? It's not like my opinion on the side content I can't do is going to miraculously change. I'm not going to suddenly be Savage ready because I survived Wuk Lamat, lol.

And it wasn't dying in dungeons that was demoralizing, it was dying in MSQ solo duties, the supposedly "most brain dead" content of all where I was getting stuck for a while every time the game decided I needed to play as some other NPC, especially any where I needed to be the healer because its not a role I normally do. Death Unto Dawn was legitimately obnoxious to complete.

Anyway, I already know I'd be part of the players that would be holding people back if I ever attempted to do hardcore content, and even said as much that people shouldn't be forced to deal with such players, so if kicking and blacklisting is the only option then I guess that's how it is (or in my case I don't show up to begin with). I just question how well the PF system works when there's fewer and fewer capable people doing the content, or that if trying to pug it seems like an awful idea, the OP would be better off finding a static.

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For what it’s worth, I find Endwalker duties mostly easier than Shadowbringers. The dev team got very good at their visual language of telegraphs in boss fights; it’s usually fairly clear what you’re expected to do, and you have enough time to do it. There are a couple solo duties that can take some work, but if you’re having fun in the rest of the game you can always dial down the difficulty to get through them.

As for party finder … I hear nothing but horror stories about it. My only actual experience with it has been with people using it to do normal difficulty duties for the first time on Dynamis, but I can well imagine it’s no fun with a group of cranky elite players trying to clear a high end duty. (I’ve certainly had enough experience with badly behaved elite players in normal duties that I don’t want to spend time in a party full of them.) From all I’ve heard, statics are the most successful way to clear high end duties, and they also seem like a good way to find a group you’re okay spending time with.

I always saw PF as taking more variance in exchange for more flexibility compared to a static. With a static, you curate the players you play with and can build familiarity in how they move, but it comes with a commitment to rigid hours. With PF, you can wait for 30min for a party to fill, only for that party to disband after 10min. Or you can find a group that does amazing.

I do think part of the issue is how demanding of other some people are in PF. I recall when I PFd the first arcadion week 1, the party I finally cleared M4S with was a party that stuck through people having deaths at mechanics way before the prog point. It was a sunrise into enrage party and people were dying in phase 1, but it was mostly due to being tired, distracted or just having progged through that mech so fast they weren't as familiar with all the permutation. I had joined PLENTY of parties before that, but these parties kicked people out after 2 mistakes or disbanded after a few failed pulls. But that last party, we saw sunrise after 2-3 pulls, and then we stuck together through a DDoS to finally clear the fight.

Like, I am currently in a static. I cleared M9S day 1, recleared it in 2 pulls this week. This weekend, I joined a friend who was trying to get a clear. And for some reason that night, I really struggled to read Vamp Stamp. I died to the first Vamp Stamp during 2 pulls. Next thing I know, I got kicked out of the party. I joined another one, did Vamp Stamp cleanly all 3 times and we got the clear. There's a reason why my friends jokes about "legend btw" when we screw up. Just because we're experienced players doesn't mean we're flawless.

PF is just impatient. And I get it. If you've been stuck on a fight for weeks, you might start getting impatient and trigger happy about removing underperformers. But most of my successful clear in PF came when I stuck through a party, even if people failed at mechanics "they shouldn't be failing at". I prefer to believe that the majority of people that join PFs genuinely believe they can meet that prog point. And that errors aren't always born from "Prog liars" but just the fact that we can't always play flawlessly.

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Envoyé par Sarantserel

I always saw PF as taking more variance in exchange for more flexibility compared to a static.

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They both have pros and cons. Unfortunately, the cons are really bad for most people, in my opinion. For every amazing solid static, there are lots of extremely "casual" statics that will take it in turns to not show up because "real life comes first" then wipe constantly because they are exhausted from their job or still don't understand the game well. And that's before even getting into how many of them will eventually fall apart due to drama or the time between patches. I don't need to get into how PF is.

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I do think part of the issue is how demanding of other some people are in PF.

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I endured 10 hours a day in enrage parties for 5 or so days. I didn't demand anything and was patient for, what, 50 hours? There is nothing demanding about expecting people at enrage prog to, well, be able to get to enrage rather than repeatedly dying to the easiest mechanics in the fight like Aetherletting.

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people were dying in phase 1, but it was mostly due to being tired

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That's understandable and when you join a party that is at bedtime for most people of that region, you generally expect they'll get sleepy fairly quick. If you join late enough though, you're no longer running into sleepy players, but people who actually have moved their sleep schedule to the day or who are in another region such as OCE.

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just having progged through that mech so fast they weren't as familiar with all the permutation

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That's exactly the problem though. I don't join prog parties until I'm absolutely certain I have repeated the earlier mechanics a lot and done them consistently every time. For example, I got to Double Alley-oop in M10S in the first party and was pretty consistent, but I have continued to join Fresh Prog parties to improve my muscle memory for the baited tankbuster, placing fire lines, and improving how I position the boss and how consistently I do it. How many other players would do that? Not very many, to be honest with you. I want to be absolutely solid and extremely consistent with solid muscle memory before I progress.

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I had joined PLENTY of parties before that, but these parties kicked people out after 2 mistakes or disbanded after a few failed pulls.

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I do agree with you that mistakes happen and that disbanding after a few failed pulls isn't the right way. In my experience (going back through each expansion to Heavensward), being patient can pay off and see the clear you couldn't get in other parties. For example, there were parties in M9S that died to initial mechanics, then SS2, then HiaC, but then actually saw enrage or locked in and cleared. But it's also fair to say that the vast majority of parties that wipe to earlier mechanics or HiaC in the first few pulls, will not have a chance of clearing in that party, at least until we're all max ilvl in 7.5 (maybe with 795 relic) and can first-time clear it with weakness and damage downs.

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for some reason that night, I really struggled to read Vamp Stamp. I died to the first Vamp Stamp during 2 pulls. Next thing I know, I got kicked out of the party. I joined another one, did Vamp Stamp cleanly all 3 times and we got the clear.

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If I get tired and mess up initial mechanics, I'm usually going to leave and go to sleep if I can't improve my focus. But sometimes I just try harder to focus and lock in when it's late and do it cleanly afer that like you did. I don't think kicking people for a mistake is the ideal solution (I avoid such parties). The ideal solution is better filtering prior to joining or people being more honest, then if there are mistakes, we know it's just mistakes and not that they aren't at prog point. Without that better filtering though, you can see why people get frustrated enough to kick though.

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There's a reason why my friends jokes about "legend btw" when we screw up. Just because we're experienced players doesn't mean we're flawless.

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Arguably ultimate raiders have more tolerance for wiping given the duration of pulls and amount of wipes. So I have brought my mindset to a point where I actually expect ultimate raiders to be the patient ones and viewing it this way seems to work. They know that wiping is part of the process, and they wouldn't have joined a PF without being ready for it to be a trap party.

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I prefer to believe that the majority of people that join PFs genuinely believe they can meet that prog point.

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They do genuinely believe it. Many times, I have been in Discord with people that genuinely believe it. What happens is they see a mechanic for the first time (not cleanly) and then say "right, now this is my prog point". They didn't get up to that mechanic cleanly, but because they saw it, they are all too happy to join parties that are progging that mechanic, or adjust their PF description to say they are progging that mechanic. They genuinely believe that is their prog point, but it is not because they don't understand that they need to be able to get to it consistently before saying that.

I shrug my shoulder. It's PF. I usually don't keep a high expectation, but PF has many decent players. For example, I'm trying to clear M11S now and several PF groups pushed my prog point to 0.6% now. Everyone plays hard so I constantly re-assess my play style and have improved a lot. There are players not doing their best. Usually I say nothing and just politely leave. In the meantime when I progged FRU, I've met so many understanding players and we became friends and we stayed together. I cleared FRU during last pull in 2 lockout with PF players (well I made friends through using PF and friends found other PF friends who helped me). Clearing FRU was the best experience I had with PF. There are PF players who like to kick other players because they don't perform those pulls up to PF leaders' expectation. I'd say that don't take it too hard as it reminds me to re-assess myself and do better. Regardless playing PF is also one way to have fun. If there is no fun, I recommend to pause a while and try again. Using PF, my thought is keeping expectation low but assess self more. If things won't work, don't worry too much. Move on. In the meantime I always keep an open mind and can make friends using PF.

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Envoyé par GraceHorizon

For what it’s worth, I find Endwalker duties mostly easier than Shadowbringers. The dev team got very good at their visual language of telegraphs in boss fights; it’s usually fairly clear what you’re expected to do, and you have enough time to do it. There are a couple solo duties that can take some work, but if you’re having fun in the rest of the game you can always dial down the difficulty to get through them.

As for party finder … I hear nothing but horror stories about it. My only actual experience with it has been with people using it to do normal difficulty duties for the first time on Dynamis, but I can well imagine it’s no fun with a group of cranky elite players trying to clear a high end duty. (I’ve certainly had enough experience with badly behaved elite players in normal duties that I don’t want to spend time in a party full of them.) From all I’ve heard, statics are the most successful way to clear high end duties, and they also seem like a good way to find a group you’re okay spending time with.

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I mean it does have In From The Cold, though apparently it's toned down by a lot on Easy mode.

World-only PF was so much better since you knew most people doing end game on your server after playing for a bit, and had to actually have relationships with people in PF in case you needed groups in the future. Opening it up more was maybe necessary, but it completely ruined the ability for the community to police itself. With the way the game is now, even a prog point wouldn't really help much if they happened to get to it while on the floor or something. It would be better than nothing, but the content is designed to have difficulty spikes throughout that can be problematic for people regardless of progress point overall. Especially if they change jobs to fit into a party and end up doing something wildly different in the instance. Just because someone reached a mechanic, doesn't mean they know how to do everything before it consistently, or at all, depending on the specific examples.

PF experience has also degraded like crazy because older content was, by comparison, way easier to carry people through and a lot easier to learn quickly. Using PF is really hard to justify with the way the game is going. I still would recommend that if you are planning to do anything time consuming, try to find a group that can do as close to your needs as possible instead to avoid the random factor, or if you need flexibility, try to find a community that runs the content you would like with pick-up groups or something along those lines.