Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Speaking from the perspective of a ‘lay-dancer’ with limited experience of the minutiae of output optimisation (which ironically is who the game is designed for apparently), I do find Tilana giving gauge usually ends in overcap. It’s not even that I don’t care I just forget to dump before using it since again, limited experience lol.

But then, I can understand the perspective of ‘maybe if it’s ok since there’s ways to adjust’ argument too. The developers do have a tendency to go nuclear when it comes to these sort of things, so I can see where the worry that removing it would cause Dancer to become less engaging to optimise (which is a genuine thing jobs should have).

Then again, the real question is ‘should it be designed for people like me in the first place’ lol. Is it fair to adjust a job based on the opinions of people who like a job but don’t play it to a high level? The people in this case being me lol not making accusations.

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Honestly as someone who plays DNC at a high level, the tillana thing isn't a huge inconvenience and it's fine to play around (aka trying to use it when I'm super low on gauge and just eating the gauge loss if it means fitting tilana inside of burst) but it's just annoying.

I really don't think that changing it into a buff instead of 50 gauge is going to make the job "more braindead" than it already is because people on the low end will smash it blindly like they always have, and people on the high end will smash it within burst window like they always have and get the tiniest bit of damage out of the gauge they didn't lose. In my opinion, the only situation where the gauge lost really matters is in specific comps in high-end content where you just roll like a god on RNG and get a million procs a second and your damage numbers actually matter, but no one in that kind of situation is playing the job at a rudimentary enough level for you to consider them a casual by any means and they probably have a million other things on their minds and ways to express skill like doing mechanics and doing weird ss alignment/uptime things depending on the fight.

With all that being said, I think the only possible excuse for DNC not having tillana give a buff like RDM manafication instead of 50 gauge is maaaybe the buff cap, and even then I'm more inclined to believe it was an oversight when tillana was changed probably later in DT's development. Why they haven't fixed it all these patches is beyond me - Maybe they're gonna change it again in 8.0. If they aren't, I think they should just give it the buff treatment like manafication so people who care can be less annoyed during burst, and people who don't care/notice can keep playing the way they were going to play anyways. It's just a QoL thing.

Also I can't be bothered digging through the ongoing argument in this thread but overcapping on gauge with or without tillana even when you do everything perfectly is entirely possible and very dependant on RNG and other factors like whether you have a MNK or whatever. Sometimes you just go into burst with 45 gauge and you literally can't burn it before techstep is back up. Sometimes you just roll and get every single proc between GCDs, or during one of the two GCDs you have to reserve early in burst for last dance and finishing move if you don't want to/can't/shouldn't drift them. Sometimes you don't have time to burn gauge because of a phase/arena transition where the boss becomes untargetable but you have to start techstep early to align with the party.

No matter what you do on DNC, you'll probably overcap. Things happen and it's disingenuous to lump it all into a skill issue. The least they could do is make our lives a little easier by tweaking tillana so it doesn't contribute to the problem.

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Originally Posted by Liyinabi

With all that being said, I think the only possible excuse for DNC not having tillana give a buff like RDM manafication instead of 50 gauge is maaaybe the buff cap, and even then I'm more inclined to believe it was an oversight when tillana was changed probably later in DT's development. Why they haven't fixed it all these patches is beyond me - Maybe they're gonna change it again in 8.0. If they aren't, I think they should just give it the buff treatment like manafication so people who care can be less annoyed during burst, and people who don't care/notice can keep playing the way they were going to play anyways. It's just a QoL thing.

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Someone in this thread mentioned doubling the Esprit cap while under Technical Finish which would not add another buff. It would just be an additional effect under the Technical Finish buff just like how MNK's doubling of the Chakra cap effect is under the Brotherhood buff.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Dancer was designed to be an easy simon says jobs to get people to play phys ranged. I feel like asking dancer to be more engaging is a fair request valence as it's been 2 expansions now. Still I think that should be addressed at an expansion launch. As far as the buff cap goes im pretty sure it was only a big issue in TOP and p8s no? The fact we can reach the buff/debuff limit at all is a huge failure by the devs. It shouldn't even be something players have to consider.

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That's what people think until they actually got to optimize it in ShB. It wasn't a hard job by any means but there was a lot of overwriting you had to avoid back then, and also melee phases during burst. Compared to ShB MCH which was frankly super basic (just more apm), it wasn't actually really easier. So saying it was meant to be a simon says job is only at the surface level because it just happened to have a very accessible skill floor. That's why I argued above it only became that easy last expansion, because the job got dumbed down hardcore with a lot of QoL changes which removed all of the proc overwriting concerns notably from Flourish (and also the melee in burst to make room for nukes, so less overwriting too there).

I'm not saying this as someone that necessarily wanted to keep the overwriting on the job though, and I didn't even play it much back then to have thoughts about it anyway.

Yeah it's funny that people say it was designed as an easy job. You have 25 jobs you can play with the exact same state of mind and mental capacity, since they're all based on perfectly static rotations with no variation.

Then you have one that is still 91.5% static but has some proc-based elements at least, and somehow that's the easy job now?! As if Static Rotation as a job design paradigm isn't nowadays rarely used because it's innate downside of being disengagingly easy to play if not perfected just right? Like, see Samurai, Black Mage, Summoner, whatever, any other DPS job basically and you find the same rote "Stanley sat in his office all day, pressing buttons"-"gameplay" (in the losest sense of the word) there, with no brain activity needed, just muscle-memory how your finger moves where. If flipping the pages of a book while reading is more demanding as "gameplay" (since the page-reading speed will vary with each page read!) than playing your damage job, you kinda get a hint maybe the damage job isn't all that well-designed now, right?

Dancer is one of the few ones that positively spends out from actually wanting the player to use at least a tiny portion of their brain while playing. It's a giant shame and frankly an insult to the playerbase that damage jobs aren't massively based on procs, random income/expenses and branching combat paths with maybe 1 job per type being "the static one", usually the purest damage dealer traditionally. The gameplay of damage jobs could be so much more involved if it weren't all static rotation type jobs. And I mean, even Dancer kinda is. The procs amount of to horrendously little considering how central they are. But they change quite little about the actual gameplay since everything still has to align to a 120s cycle, sadly.

I don't understand how this is an issue. If you have so much gauge coming in, then use it. I've never had an issue with an overabundance of gauge coming in that I can't handle it from any of my EX or Savage runs.

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Originally Posted by animeking

I don't understand how this is an issue. If you have so much gauge coming in, then use it. I've never had an issue with an overabundance of gauge coming in that I can't handle it from any of my EX or Savage runs.

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I mean in general I agree. Or rather I think that any gauge system that cannot either (or ideally both):
* Overflow, wasting resource generation.
* Starve, breaking combos due to lack of resource to continue them.

Is pointless and should be removed. If your gauge has no actual effect on your gameplay sequence, there's no point having it.

Tillana is kinda odd though, because they added this effect later, and for no reason. Seemingly forgetting the effect Technical already has.

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Originally Posted by animeking

I don't understand how this is an issue. If you have so much gauge coming in, then use it. I've never had an issue with an overabundance of gauge coming in that I can't handle it from any of my EX or Savage runs.

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Like I mentioned earlier, there's a few GCDs within early techstep that you have to reserve for last dance/finishing move if you don't want to drift standard step. Sometimes you end up having to overcap near the end of tech to fit starfall dance or tillana in since not using both during buff window is a damage loss. In my own savage runs, sometimes my gauge just procs like crazy and I literally have to overcap, so a tillana change would at least make it more manageable. Not to mention how annoying it is to have to throw tillana out and forcefully overcap right before mechs where ranged are far away till the end of burst window like FRU p2's mirrors. Depending on your RNG later in technical step in those situations, the whole tillana giving 50 gauge thing can end up being a damage loss because you lose out on a saber dance or two.

It's not that the gauge is unmanageable, it's just inconvenient and tillana giving gauge in the same expansion where they specifically gave other jobs buffs/changes to help with overcapping seems like a huge oversight.

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

Someone in this thread mentioned doubling the Esprit cap while under Technical Finish which would not add another buff. It would just be an additional effect under the Technical Finish buff just like how MNK's doubling of the Chakra cap effect is under the Brotherhood buff.

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Yeah that would be ideal, no need for a buff and you have some room to breathe during burst.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's what people think until they actually got to optimize it in ShB. It wasn't a hard job by any means but there was a lot of overwriting you had to avoid back then, and also melee phases during burst. Compared to ShB MCH which was frankly super basic (just more apm), it wasn't actually really easier. So saying it was meant to be a simon says job is only at the surface level because it just happened to have a very accessible skill floor. That's why I argued above it only became that easy last expansion, because the job got dumbed down hardcore with a lot of QoL changes which removed all of the proc overwriting concerns notably from Flourish (and also the melee in burst to make room for nukes, so less overwriting too there).

I'm not saying this as someone that necessarily wanted to keep the overwriting on the job though, and I didn't even play it much back then to have thoughts about it anyway.

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Don't remind me of how much I loved going into melee to use blood shower on single target :( why'd that take it away.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Don't remind me of how much I loved going into melee to use blood shower on single target :( why'd that take it away.

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To make room for 2min nukes.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean in general I agree. Or rather I think that any gauge system that cannot either (or ideally both):
* Overflow, wasting resource generation.
* Starve, breaking combos due to lack of resource to continue them.

Is pointless and should be removed. If your gauge has no actual effect on your gameplay sequence, there's no point having it.

Tillana is kinda odd though, because they added this effect later, and for no reason. Seemingly forgetting the effect Technical already has.

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It is required for lower parties or even solo else you wouldn't be able to use DotD reliably or at all in the first opener. However they could have made it like a lot of other jobs: use Tillana, get a free use of Sabre/DotD. That would have definitely prevented all of those debates around it. More boring, but definitely what I'd have expected the devs to do with their track record. Playing it safe.