It makes sense thematically. Tanks and DPS are fine in solo content because of their sustain and damage respectively, while healers are worse in both categories. It's also a step in the right direction for what healers want.
You could leave tank damage where it is so they're not shafted and put healers around 30% above them toward DPS levels, but asking them to rebalance the entire game around that is futile when they won't even rebalance old duties to match the current meta.
"Why not both?"Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
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08-16-2024, 04:43 AMVictorSpoils
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08-16-2024, 05:31 AMCKNovel
Why swap damage instead of just raising healer damage?
It's a logic I'm confused with, why do healers believe that in order to make healers fun, you must nerf the tanks?
In my opinion:
-Healers should have at least a similar DPS to tanks. I don't see a problem with healers having more DPS than tanks.
-Healers should have more than restoring HP in their kit, integrate debuff cleansing in their oGCDs heals with Esuna being an emergency.
-Healers rotation should mixed healing and damage with similar abilities liike Assize you can either keep to heal or use on CD for damages. Or similar to Lilies, make the GCD heal not a DPS loss.
I believe we face a problem as long as we have healers sitting between the two chairs of "Healers is a heal" and "Healers is a green DPS". It's necessary to choose one and assume the choice, don't make healers pure heal if there's nothing to heal. -
08-16-2024, 05:46 AMLilimoLimomo
The problem with tanks isn't the damage they deal; the problem is their egregious self-sustain. Lowering the damage they deal would just mean that it takes even longer for an unkillable tank to finish soloing the duty after your healer died.
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08-16-2024, 07:04 AMZairava
Honestly I don't care just make Dark Knight and the healers actually fun to play lmao
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08-16-2024, 07:43 AMRamiee
I think besides the DRK and SGE, tanks and healers can have the same damage. They're not DPS they're supports there is no reason for them not to have the same amount of damage output. Bring healers up to tank levels, it will also improve the MSQ because killing mobs for quests won't take as long for healers anymore.
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08-16-2024, 07:47 AMBobby66Issue with giving them the same damage it will not solve the issue with them being replaced in content when possible. A healers job in FFXIV can be replaced but the nature of aggro in this game a Tank cannot be easily replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
The enjoyment factor is just one part of the equation. -
08-16-2024, 07:48 AMMikoRemiIt's the same mentality with trying to nerf Warrior countless times despite how it hasn't been working at all for years. Nerfing is easy and requires no brainpower or effort, see something good? Hit it with the hammer, it's totally not going to just make everything unfun if not cause problems in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Pretty sure if Healers were called Support there wouldn't be as big of a deal, but much like Tanks are blue DPS, Healers are green DPS since DPS is god in FF14. You can't really convince these people though, and they'll just have to be met with disappointment when this terrible idea isn't implemented, just like tanks in general got even more sustain options in DT in general.
I will say though, I hope DRK players and Healers get some love, but with the ideas both sides spew out(nerfing everything fun when SE very rarely nerfs jobs), I'm not surprised there's little traction there. -
08-16-2024, 08:27 AMBrixy
Keep damage the way it is, but give healers a party wide damage buff ability that needs to be kept up full-time. Slightly rebalance fights to accommodate for healer dmg buffs so it's impossible to beat enrage timers without them. Tada, healers made essential with very little actual changes and healers feel better to play since you have a shiny new effect to upkeep between all your 1111111 spam. Everyone wins.
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08-16-2024, 09:20 AMRithy255I really don't know how to respond to such a argument because it assumes that any level of sustain on tank will make it so healers will either not need to heal or that healers will become a "heal bot".Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikazam
It seems really odd to me that we can't reasonably see some levels of sustain being okay on tanks and being able to be balanced around how much damage the fights have. I honestly thought healers were complaining that they don't "heal bot" enough but apprently adding more damage to fights isn't a solution because now you'll be healing too much.
I'm honestly really tired with these all or nothing arguments, It honestly feels like even if I say "yeah lets reduce tank sustain" it's still not enough, removing it fully doesn't even make sense to begin with.
I'm genuinely trying to be reasonable with this discourse of "healer bad tank good" but it feels like the only solution for some people is to remove all forms of healing that isn't on a Healer, Rightfully tanks should get a "nerf" but I don't get why its 100% targeted at the self healing, if you tuned down the numbers it's reasonable that fights would have enough Damage so that it's on both the Healer and the tank to keep the tank alive.
I'm honestly starting to think is that healers want tanks too feel miserable and are against any role having some form of healing, which if we're going to make it so "dps only dps" "tank only tank" healer only heal" then sure, I'm against that formular but be consistent, if only Healers can heal then healers/tanks shouldn't deal damage (like 10% of a DPS), Tanks should hold aggro and be the only ones allowed to mitigate, which to me makes a boring game.
I dunno i've even said I want them to greatly nerf sustain and Mitigation, I'm just confused why people think it's only a tank sustain issue. -
08-16-2024, 09:36 AMSupersnow845tank self sustain is the most egregious of the tank balancing issues. PLD (who I’m just going to use as the default example because we’ve discussed this before) gets a mitigation on a tiny CD (functionally about 25 seconds) that has a 500 potency regen attached to it and also gets a 400 potency heal on average every 5.5 GCD’s. This isn’t remotely insignificant. If we convert that to healer potency on average a PLD is healing themselves for around 2.4K healer potency per minute, that’s the same potency that a WHM is putting out using all three of their solaces per minute. This isn’t just a “the ranks are just getting a little healing why do the selfish healers want to take that away”, this is the tanks putting our comparable healing to the healers in self sustain. Remember half the healer kits are built around single target healing they don’t use. Do you want half your kit to be useless because another role does your job better than youQuote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Tanks shouldn’t be completely helpless at maintaining their own health but nor should they put out comparable self healing to the healers themselves and remember unlike healers who often share resources with their AOE and single target heals (aetherflow, lilys addersgall) and sometimes have to resort to GCD healing which affects their damage everything a tank gets it gets completely for free. If you want to do another role you should pay a cost for it. If im playing “off tank” as a SCH I can only do it by standing there spamming adlo on myself and doing no damage at all. If you want to play off healer you should also pay a cost, that’s why passive healing on HS is terribly designed and clemency is well designed. HS should just be a mitigation, if you want the heal then pay a DPS cost for it
The only people who think the tanks should be completely helpless are people who think healers wanting their role to feel meaningful is a personal attack on tanks, healers simply don’t want tanks completely replacing our role and losing none of their 30% more damage to actually do it