Considering Shield Bash's stun is not 100% proc, that's not exactly what I'd call a solid strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRiser
I still think interchangeability should be the main goal. It shouldn't really matter if you have a PLD or WAR or SAM or BST, so long as you have someone doing the tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
There's more to the issue than stats. Usable WS, for one (which in a way relates to the OP).Quote:
I honestly haven't parsed against a DPS geared Warrior to compare numbers. I mentioned "potential" because you need to be geared properly as a DPS tank. Warriors base stats are STR and VIT, which makes the average WAR build, naturally geared towards damage output, so I can understand why you would think PLD can be so easliy out-DPS'd
Cover should really be turned into a toggle and left at that. The AF chestpiece bonus could then be changed to something else.Quote:
I agree, cover is a bit of a pain, and only works well on close quarter DD's. Buffs include, Rampart.
As for Rampart, its design has always bothered me because it's trying to serve two purposes that kinda don't work in tandem with each other. Party mitigation and enmity-gain-as-part-or-a-rotation. Don't know where I'd take it because if you turn it into a real party mitigation ability (20-25% damage reduction on everyone in the party), you give the devs an excuse to add massive damage abilities during boss fights because they're balancing things around the chance of a PLD being present. If you make it an aggro gain ability, then you get another button to press for the sake of having another button to press (one where PLD would be better-served with another attack or WS). If you turn it into a snap AoE aggro Taunt ability with a slight buff to defense, you end up making it really situational.
Riot Blade > Rage of Halone Needs Work - Some Ideas
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08-03-2012, 10:11 AMDuelle
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08-03-2012, 03:55 PMLadon
I'm seeing lots of how to use the combo, haven't really seen as to why. I'm not really following why anyone would spend 2000TP on the current combo considering the alternatives.
First there is Phalanx which seems like it should be the go to whenever it is up because it's damage to TP cost is incredibly efficient and it has a fast cooldown. Of course it requires a block to trigger so not always reliable but with a good string of blocks it can output a great DPS rate plus it's the opener for our best WS when it's up. It's so efficient though that even if you spam it you can still usually get to 1000 TP pretty quickly. 2000 of course takes even more time.
This brings me to my next point. Let's look at the combo for Riot Blade > Rage. The numbers are actually pretty terrible if you break it down. First to execute it on an enemy with a larger hit box which most bosses have, it takes about 2 seconds to actually run to the rear of it's hit box, the another 3 seconds in animation lock with Riot Blade. Assuming you are being a good tank you have to then run back, another 2 seconds then it's a 4 second animation lock for Rage. Total of 11 seconds to finish the combo. You can shave off 2 second if you don't care about positioning at the time so 9 seconds at best. All of this costs 2000 TP of course.
Now lets look at the other option of how to spend 2000 TP. Fast Blade > Savage Blade then Fast Blade > Flat Blade. Each has about 1 second of animation lock. so Fast Blade > Savage Blade, 2 seconds, 9 second cooldown (Fast Blade cooldown is already active when you are in Savage Blade animation lock) Fast Blade > Flat Blade 2 seconds. Total of 13 second execution time. Also these 4 WS will do about as much damage as Riot Blade > Rage will for 2 seconds more of execution time. You can also throw in Goring Blade for free as it's animation lock time it carried out during Fast Blade cooldown making the entire option superior in damage even if you don't apply the bleed component.
-So comparing the two options, TP to damage efficiency is about the same.
-Fast Blade option generates more enmity with Flat Blade in the mix.
-Riot Blade > Rage has a 1:33 cooldown where you can go right back into Fast Blade > Flat Blade after 10 seconds if you have TP. This means that for DPS races Fast Blade > Flat Blade simply destroys Riot Blade > Rage even if Flat Blade damage sucks because of it's short cooldown that matches Fast Blade. It's not even worth putting Riot Blade > Rage in because it costs twice as much TP and basically have the needed TP in half the time.
-Missing in Riot Blade > Rage can result in no damage and a loss of 2000TP or a ~50% reduction in damage then you have a very long cool down. Missing the Fast Blade combos means a ~58% (averaging missing Savage combo versus Flat) loss in damage and 1000TP and a 10 second cooldown or a ~35% (averaging missing Savage versus Flat) reduction in total damage if something else misses.
Also one thing to note that Rage damage suffers greatly on high physical resistant enemies due to it being a 5 fold attack and damage reduction being applied 5 times rather than once. This is a common RPG artifact.
So I'm trying to figure out why we'd ever use it in it's current state. Only two things I came up with were:
-For the physical damage debuff. How good is this? Has anyone tested it's effectiveness? It doesn't seem to land often on high dLVL enemies. I also suspect dLVL is going to have the same kind of effect on this debuff that it has on damage mitigation from defense. That is it's next to useless.
-For spike enmity. Seems like a really poor choice though as you have plenty of better tools for this and you aren't doing a very good job if you are sitting on 2000 TP just waiting for this kind of opportunity.
So my suggestions really have nothing to do with being able to pull of the combo better or not understanding how to use it. The current numbers simply do not add up. My suggested changes help make it a better option rather than make it 'easymode' or similar silly suggestion. What the changes help is:
1) Give it a superior cost to damage ratio of other options making it worth saving the TP for and putting into DPS chains when the skills are ready. That's in the TP reduction.
2) Reduce the required execution time by removing the back-hitting requirement. This alone can shave 2-4 seconds on it making it viable to throw into a DPS rotation in between Fast Blade cooldowns. This is the main goal here, not to make the combo any easier.
3) Better debuffs to give it an edge and to also help offer a unique tool for groups. It also helps offset the long cooldown time of the combo again making it a worthwhile option to our other abilities.
Hopefully this helps better explain my thinking as it seems many may have missed a lot of points I'm attempt to make and resolve. -
08-03-2012, 11:59 PMDeadRiserHints why I said AND IF ENEMY IS STUNNED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
WHY? It gives an AWESOME debuff that sticks on endgame mobs like Ifrit, Chimera, Moogles, etc. And it is pretty strong. Maybe people would realize this if they didn't stack BLM BLM BLM all the time for everything. Also, it ups your accuracy on Rage of Halone by so much. Try doing Rage of Halone on a higher level mob now. The accuracy is so sh*tty it's pathetic. PLD isn't all about pushing out as much damage as you can but about keeping hate with skill rotations and if Riot Blade isn't in your skill rotation... All I can say is wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
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08-04-2012, 12:24 AMSwordCoheir
Not saying you don't have your points Ladon, cost to damage ratio does make it the weakest of our heavy hitting weaponskills and is somewhat difficult to use depending on the situation, but it does have it's uses.
Typically I end up saving it for last if all my other WS's are on cooldown, or if solo or something I'll save up TP to 3k time the enemies attack or shield bash them, throw out riot blade combo, follow up with Spirits and Goring Blade and if I'm fast enough build up enough tp to use Flat Blade before the defense down wears. -
08-04-2012, 12:24 AMShivenCasullI'm with you on rampart, the skill is awesome, but so often it's impossible to get the full use of it. Between it's short range and mechanics (party members need to be on the enmity list...) it could use an improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I don't disagree with what you're suggesting, but the damage would have to be lowered if the directional requirement was dropped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
Just being able to use Rage of Halone (with the +accuracy) fairly often would be a huge increase in damage. -
08-04-2012, 05:23 AMEstellios
Shield Bash's stun isn't 100% but it works extremely often. In a Moogle party once I had a crappy tank/bard and ended up kiting the Warrior moogle around for half the damn fight on my WHM and shield bash never failed to stun. I'd be more worried about it missing than it not stunning.
If it's needed in order to land Goring blade there's no reason not to as the defense down is amazing. -
08-04-2012, 10:48 AMburitoslicerAccuracy bonus armor like the Officer sets the GC has to offer makes it to where you almost never miss with sanction buff. Decently melded gear will also give the same effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
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08-04-2012, 05:33 PMAlerith
Two points I'll comment on:
People truly underestimate the Stun on Shield Bash. Sure, it's not 100%, but against things the Darkhold Ogre or Coincounter, you'd be VERY surprised at how often you can stun. And there is nothing more satisfying than stunning Eye of the Beholder or 100 Tonz Swing.
The second point is the way people are underestimating the Defense Down on Riot Blade. The example I present is Miser's Mistress.
When you're DD are going all out, the Defense Down increases their damage potential, as well as gives you a little bit of a hack and slash as well.
To best utilize Riot Blade against Miser's Mistress, use Outmaneuver and Divine Veil against the Banemites in the area just before Mistress's room. Have the rest of your party enter and start activating the glyph. By the time the banemites "Retreat to the void", you'll have build up a reserve of TP to be used against Miser's Mistress. This will let you Phalanx, Spirit's Within, then Riot Blade/Rage of Halone.
Chances are, you're using MNKs, and in more cases than not, one of the shoulder tackles will stun Mistress. This gives you the ideal conditions to run behind her for Riot Blade. This also puts you in a prime location for your Rampart to hit just about everyone. Then you simply run back in front of her and use Rage of Halone, at which point your regular tanking cycle can continue. -
08-05-2012, 12:54 AMSwordCoheirDefinately, I use it regularly on anything that can be stunned. Actually, it's vital for a mess free hamlet when your kiting around the Beastman leader like in Aleport or occasionally Golden Bazaar and Hyristmill, but it lets you throw out the occasional combo to help whittle down it's hp and speed it up a bit in the end process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
The process is a little different for each one of course due to different Beastmen behaviors, and you stand to take a little bit of damage with this strat
Hyristmill / Golden Bazaar - Outmaneuver (if up) > Divine Veil > Phalanx > Aegis Boon (to cap HP for Spirits) > Spirits Within > Shield Bash
Aleport is a little different because you can't indefinitely kite the NM w/o taking damage, in fact you will have to run through him twice to kite him. Thankfully he rarely follows up with a second auto attack and you can minimize damage by doing the following
Ale Port - In Cave: Outmaneuver > Divine Veil > Run through him.
At Cave Entrance: Aegis Boon > Phalanx > Spirits > Shield Bash > Run through him.
At any time your hurting a little on hp just fall back on safe mode and Aegis Boon > Shield Bash and forget Spirits Within till your hp is back up in the safe zone.