Spoilers for 7.0 Alexandrian life style

The original Otis whom we met in Heritage Found is essentially the same concept as what we've seen with previous soul transfers. His soul was bound to a machine vessel in place of his corporeal form, as part of Perseveration's early experiments to create the Endless. That's also not dissimilar from the gargoyle stone effigies that Y'shtola describes in 6.1 (or the spirit vessels used to transfer our friends from the First), but it doesn't prevent death.

In order to prevent death from injury, it's not enough to store the incorporeal soul in a regulator, because it also needs a vessel to return to. You'd also need a means of restoring the damaged corporeal body, which is presumably drawn from the aether of the backup souls stored in the regulator. That's where part of the energy cost of the system lies, even if you factor out the Endless.

The entire system runs on consuming souls as a resource, which is why you need a net influx of souls to keep it running.

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Originally Posted by Kennar

Okay, cool. So, why can't the regulator just temporarily hold the soul after it's been intercepted and put it back into the body after resuscitation? Or, perhaps it could extract the soul (important distinction) at the moment of death, then store it.

After all, the Garleans figured out how to extract souls, and it has been established that a person's soul (Zero's specifically) can be removed, placed in a bottle and carried to another shard, then reconstituted into a surrogate body with the same characteristics as the original, with no ill effects; and Eorzeans are obviously way behind the Alexandrians on a technological level. That would make all this soul processing unnecessary and would work outside the of range of the Everkeep's wi-fi signal.

Has this been explained already? Am I overthinking it? Also, my first thought after reading the information terminals in Origenics was, "someone needs to take a technical writing class."

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On top of Layte_Aeon's point that we just aren't broadly all that good at manipulating souls in that way (and I'd extend it to also say 'we have no confirmation Alexandria was even the best civilization we've met at the subject'), I want to put forward a more terrible possible explanation:

We can't assume that the cruelty isn't the point.

The Origenics system was designed by Preservation, who are as shady as they come as far as groups never given a physical presence, and even the intended outward results of their creations are abhorrent to an outside view. Living Memory is about as big of a direct insult as you can get to the basic principles that led to its creation, and at this point in the story I can't confidently rule out malice or stupidity in regards to Preservation's intentions about any of it.

It might well be that Origenics is horrifying by design. You saw what they did to Ambrose, after all; they aren't above cruelty.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

So while it's delaying people's return to the aetherial sea it's not soul killing anyone or draining all life from the planet or anything. Because FF7 is very popular, people think this is a mako plotline, but it's not, which is why the characters didn't stop them from doing it. They find it distasteful and sacrilegious, but it's not actual a threat to the star. At least not from the information we've been given thus far.

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Is this stated somewhere in the cutscenes because I cant remember that they said that souls return to the livestream after the person who used them died. They only ever focused on the person itself and that they are kinda like the void creatures. As far as I remember those creatures combine their souls with those they eat and thus loose part of themselves. This is also the reason why the regulators have the memory overwrite function. As soon as someone has used a spare soul, that function activates to make sure, that no remaining old memories of the spare soul overlap with the other one. That would seem highly unnecessary if the spare soul just stays seperated inside the body.

I also think that the scions would not have reacted so negative towards that system if the souls are released to the lifestream after one use as a spare soul. I am also not sure how Alexandria would have been able to hold up the system if the souls are released back into the lifestream. They would have needed a huge amount of new life being born to sustain such a system. Heck even in the present, where childbirth seems to be at the lowest point they still dont have any restrictions on soul usage.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Specifically it's the Endless making it unsustainable, though, rather than the regulators reviving people. That system's got completely separate problems and needs to be shut down for those reasons, but the unsustainability comes from the ever-increasing amount of souls needed to sustain Living Memory.

It's not clear if the soul cell system is actually entirely soul-neutral, or if it's a drop in the bucket in comparison.

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Do they need whole souls to sustain the endless? I have heard that quite a bit and I am honestly confused about it. After going through the story in my native language (german) I thougth that the energy that they used to power the endless comes from death people but not by using their souls but by extracting another sort of aether from them at the moment of death. The cutscene of the first attack on tural shows how one of the soldiers extract two orbs from the dead old lady. One is the soul (white) and the other seems to be the energy that they need for the endless. It cant be the memories because those are extracted in that facility in the tower.

Sphene also stated that in the past they were able to sustain the system with the endless by using the energy from their dead people.

So bascially when a person dies their soul gets stored in the regulator while their living aether energy gets harvested for the endless. (I wonder if that is the reason why they collected Namika before her death...so that they are ready to get that aether before it disappears)The soul gets cleaned and while the clean soul gets stored for further use, their memories are uploaded in living memory and giving form through the use of the orange energy. (They show us in the dungeon that the souls and memories are going in two different directions.)

Thats how I understood it. Yet when I read here on the forum or on reddit it seems that many people believe that they are using souls for the endless too. Some even saying that they use a soul and then put the memories on it. Did the english version write it that way?

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

I just want to point out that the Endless don't use souls. They use life force, an alternate translation of "corporeal aether".

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Yeah thats what I think too. The energy for the endless is not the soul but whats left of a dead person. Which is why the system was sustainable for a short amount of time in the past. (Its also the reason why it was kinda easy for me to deactivate living memory. These ghosts did not even have a soul at all. They are really just memory given form)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Yeah thats what I think too. The energy for the endless is not the soul but whats left of a dead person. Which is why the system was sustainable for a short amount of time in the past. (Its also the reason why it was kinda easy for me to deactivate living memory. These ghosts did not even have a soul at all. They are really just memory given form)

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Honestly, in this discussion, it's a distinction without a difference. If the Endless need to be powered by a thing that can only be gotten from people when they die, does it really matter if the thing they're being powered by is souls, 'corporeal aether', blood, or any other substance?

The Endless are powered by life force/corporeal aether. The regulators are powered by souls. Both of them come from people dying, and Sphene was willing to kill the entire world outside that dome to solve the supply shortage the Endless were causing. A 'well actually' on what substance that is doesn't change a nick of the scenario.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Is this stated somewhere in the cutscenes because I cant remember that they said that souls return to the livestream after the person who used them died. They only ever focused on the person itself and that they are kinda like the void creatures. As far as I remember those creatures combine their souls with those they eat and thus loose part of themselves. This is also the reason why the regulators have the memory overwrite function. As soon as someone has used a spare soul, that function activates to make sure, that no remaining old memories of the spare soul overlap with the other one. That would seem highly unnecessary if the spare soul just stays seperated inside the body.

I also think that the scions would not have reacted so negative towards that system if the souls are released to the lifestream after one use as a spare soul. I am also not sure how Alexandria would have been able to hold up the system if the souls are released back into the lifestream. They would have needed a huge amount of new life being born to sustain such a system. Heck even in the present, where childbirth seems to be at the lowest point they still dont have any restrictions on soul usage.

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That's how it works with voidsent. They are combined, but not permanently. You kill a voidsent and all the souls inside it are able to get free. The difference is there is no aetherial sea for them to return to. When we kill Zoraal Ja we see all the souls float out of him, showing upon his death they were able to escape. Their disgust comes from the use of people's souls as currency, not due to the system being so destructive it'd break the afterlife. They'd have to put an end to it if it was destroying the afterlife and they currently have control of the Alexandrian government through Gulool Ja.

And you don't need a huge amount of life to be born to sustain the system as death through old age and disease is more common than death through accidents. Even with the way they let themselves die easily since they know they can come back, they were still the last surviving civilization on their planet and before Zoraal Ja used most of them they had a pretty impressive bank of souls stored up. Given the number he used at once, they will likely cost more credits but unlike life force the Alexandrians don't need to wipe out swaths of people to get more.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Honestly, in this discussion, it's a distinction without a difference. If the Endless need to be powered by a thing that can only be gotten from people when they die, does it really matter if the thing they're being powered by is souls, 'corporeal aether', blood, or any other substance?

The Endless are powered by life force/corporeal aether. The regulators are powered by souls. Both of them come from people dying, and Sphene was willing to kill the entire world outside that dome to solve the supply shortage the Endless were causing. A 'well actually' on what substance that is doesn't change a nick of the scenario.

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I have seen so many posts on different sites that were like: Those are real people because they got a soul and memories. They compare them even to those at Ultima Thule.
While I just read these and be like: But thats not true. These are walking memories. Memories that are completely at the mercy of the towers. And these towers are powered by the aether of the dead. (They are imo kinda like the shades that Emeth Selch created. Just with a bit more personality because of the memories)

In the end you are right, it does not really matter because Sphenes plan is bad. But I do think it paints the wrong picture if too many believe that these were constructions with a soul.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

That's how it works with voidsent. They are combined, but not permanently. You kill a voidsent and all the souls inside it are able to get free. The difference is there is no aetherial sea for them to return to. When we kill Zoraal Ja we see all the souls float out of him, showing upon his death they were able to escape. Their disgust comes from the use of people's souls as currency, not due to the system being so destructive it'd break the afterlife. They'd have to put an end to it if it was destroying the afterlife and they currently have control of the Alexandrian government through Gulool Ja.

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But what stops the regulators from just snatching up all the souls in the persons body after death? Zoraal Ja also seems to be a special case because we dont see souls leaving other death bodies. (Like the guard he killed or all those killed in solution 9.)

I guess for me it just makes the most sense that these souls wouls also be collected because it would make it easier to keep the system running.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I have seen so many posts on different sites that were like: Those are real people because they got a soul and memories. They compare them even to those at Ultima Thule.
While I just read these and be like: But thats not true. These are walking memories. Memories that are completely at the mercy of the towers. And these towers are powered by the aether of the dead. (They are imo kinda like the shades that Emeth Selch created. Just with a bit more personality because of the memories)

In the end you are right, it does not really matter because Sphenes plan is bad. But I do think it paints the wrong picture if too many believe that these were constructions with a soul.

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I consider the Endless real no matter what they're powered by. Or more specifically I think 'real' is a subjective, arbitrary and meaningless standard that people are using to claim whatever stance they've landed on has some post-hoc legitimacy, but that the Endless do fit my personal subjective, arbitrary and meaningless standard. Interestingly I do agree that they're closest to the shades of Fake Amaurot, but they're close in a way that crosses the line; I don't consider Fake Amaurot's people 'real', I consider them Emet-Selch's sockpuppets, extensions of his own argument and worldview. In-universe, they're no more 'real' than Cillian Murphy's performance as Oppenheimer. Maybe even less, actually, because at least Cillian Murphy's unarguably real.

But it's also not really connected to the subject we were discussing, which was the actual mechanical intentions and purpose behind the Origenics system.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But what stops the regulators from just snatching up all the souls in the persons body after death? Zoraal Ja also seems to be a special case because we dont see souls leaving other death bodies. (Like the guard he killed or all those killed in solution 9.)

I guess for me it just makes the most sense that these souls wouls also be collected because it would make it easier to keep the system running.

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The regulator doesn't grab the used souls because it would be useless to do so. When a person dies, the regulator uses the life force from a soul cell to revive them. The now drained soul is inside them. If Alexandrians had a way to replenish life force, there would be no conflict. The only way to get more life force is for the soul to be reborn, which means there is no reason not to release it until the aetherial sea at the death of the user. If they Alexandrians had a way to refill souls with life force and thus recycle soul cells then they'd actually need way, way fewer of them as they could just keep refilling the ones they already have. That would mean a certain number of souls would be held hostage forever, but the rest of the cycle of life would be unaffected because there would be no need to gather more if they could simply keep using the ones they already have in stock. So you are correct that if what you are saying was possible it would be easier to keep the system running, in fact, it would make it so easy there would be no need to travel to another shard in search of life force.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I have seen so many posts on different sites that were like: Those are real people because they got a soul and memories. They compare them even to those at Ultima Thule.
While I just read these and be like: But thats not true. These are walking memories. Memories that are completely at the mercy of the towers. And these towers are powered by the aether of the dead. (They are imo kinda like the shades that Emeth Selch created. Just with a bit more personality because of the memories)

In the end you are right, it does not really matter because Sphenes plan is bad. But I do think it paints the wrong picture if too many believe that these were constructions with a soul.

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DT brings into question what a soul does. The beings in Living Memory are feeling, thinking people capable of love, ambition, hope, compassion, deduction, they meet every metric of personhood I can think of. That bunny girl we met in Living Memory was Erenville's mom in every way that mattered. So if you tell me, no, actually Erenville's mom is a white ball in someone's headpiece that will give them a full heal if they fall down a flight of stairs, I'm gonna have a lot more questions. Does that white ball love him? Cause the simulacra in Living Memory seems to. Can that white ball lead a revolution? Cause the simulacra in Living Memory can. Can that white ball strong arm me into deleting an entire population? Cause that simulacra in Living Memory did. The shades in Amaurot were very obviously not self-aware. They interpreted us as children because they couldn't think outside their programming. The people in Living Memory knew where they were, what they were, the cost of maintaining them and those with unfinished business continued existing through sheer force of will. WHY DO THESE THINGS HAVE FORCE OF WILL?!

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

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I don't think the Alexandrians had the technology until the dome was built if not some time around there and definitely not how we know them today until after they preserved Sphene's memories. Though I suspect that even that didn't work out as planned as the announcement that they had done it comes off as it wasn't perfect.

Anyway the reason why I insist apon the assumption that they come with a soul is that regulators can be looked at the same way as a person being soon after the sundering. Without a regulator a person only has one soul. The one that resides inside their body. That's how the Arcadion fighter along with anyone post Zoraal ja's attack that has no more bonus souls can still be alive. Now lets give a person an empty regulator. They still only have one soul so any accidental death they have prior to earning enough credits to buy a soul means they die, everyone forgets about them and their own soul goes to Origenics to be cleansed and their memories to Living Memory. If they come with a soul then they get a buffer. That and having a job seems to be tied to having a soul inside of your regulator. As one npc you talk to during a quest where one of the people in charge of soul distribution asks you to talk to how some folks feel about their situation after the attacks says they basically in a catch 22 situation. Where the place they worked at before the attack was completely destroyed in the attack. That they need to buy a soul so that they can find a job, but they don't have enough credits to buy a soul.

We also know that souls were already at a low supply high demand before the attack and afterwards there's an even lower supply of them. I'm also fairly certain beast souls aren't able to revive people as we see with Zoraal ja after Gulool Ja Ja killed him and with that hunter we're introduced to. Where beast souls seem to only function the same way that a warrior's inner beast works. In that they act as a berserker mode that might not allow the user the ability to ascertain what is happening around them. As both Zoraal ja and the hunter looked to move on instinct vs how the Arcadion fighters are aware of what is happening around them.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

That and having a job seems to be tied to having a soul inside of your regulator. As one npc you talk to during a quest where one of the people in charge of soul distribution asks you to talk to how some folks feel about their situation after the attacks says they basically in a catch 22 situation. Where the place they worked at before the attack was completely destroyed in the attack. That they need to buy a soul so that they can find a job, but they don't have enough credits to buy a soul.

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Are you sure the NPC you talked to didn't mean they couldn't go out and work because they had anxiety about doing any labor without a spare soul rather than they won't be hired without a spare soul? I haven't done the side quests, so I don't know which NPC you're talking about.

ETA: I thought about it more and given people are allowed to go without the regulators entirely, not being able to find work unless you have a stock of souls doesn't make sense. That seems like the kind of thing that would have to be mentioned in the MSQ given they stress how Sphene allows people to choose how they wish to live and provides supplies for those who do not wish to make their home in Everkeep. If going without a regulator meant living in poverty, then that should have came up. I think perhaps the NPC you spoke with either works in a dangerous field or just has general anxiety about being out of spare souls.