In regards to G'raha Tia in Dawntrail and going forward *MSQ SPOILERS*

For the love of God, no, we do not need even more pandering to the people who obsess over these characters. The constant catering to fanservice is why the game is in the state it's in now and why the story has gone completely down the drain, because the writing exists to serve as a set-up for pointless asides designed to set fans aflutter instead of developing a decent narrative. If you're longing for that sort of content, go play Baldur's Gate or something.

It blows my mind how different gaming communities are these days, and how strong fan influence has become and the level of entitlement that brings with it. At the risk of sounding like a grandma, time was you played something, you enjoyed it, and you shared all your thoughts and feelings on the characters and relationships with friends or fansites and made your own content if you so wished to - you didn't ask for your own headcanons to actually be put into the game.

The devs are most at fault for feeding into it and encouraging it, but I think some fans really need to get a bit of perspective and realise that sort of thing belongs on AO3 and Discord servers, not in the story itself.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

For the love of God, no, we do not need even more pandering to the people who obsess over these characters. The constant catering to fanservice is why the game is in the state it's in now and why the story has gone completely down the drain, because the writing exists to serve as a set-up for pointless asides designed to set fans aflutter instead of developing a decent narrative. If you're longing for that sort of content, go play Baldur's Gate or something.

It blows my mind how different gaming communities are these days, and how strong fan influence has become and the level of entitlement that brings with it. At the risk of sounding like a grandma, time was you played something, you enjoyed it, and you shared all your thoughts and feelings on the characters and relationships with friends or fansites and made your own content if you so wished to - you didn't ask for your own headcanons to actually be put into the game.

The devs are most at fault for feeding into it and encouraging it, but I think some fans really need get a bit of perspective and realise that sort of thing belongs on AO3 and Discord servers, not in the story itself.

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I feel like a part of my intent was missed. I agree that the shipping should stay out of MSQ. I'm not asking for the devs to pander to the most popular ship and insert it *more* into the story. I was simply suggesting that it be dialed down and moved to optional side content, if they're keen on "pandering" to the fans as you put it. I feel like Yoshi P's team is very receptive to the fans, so the issue is, as you seem to agree, the fanservice is getting a bit Much. I do believe it is an issue that needs to be addressed so the main scenario is less cluttered with shippy or twitter moments and has more room to explore a grander, greater narrative. I agree that the way they cater to the fans is how we got from the Exarch to the tacocat- and because fans freaked out over the taco in the trailer, G'raha was then given popcorn and ice cream. I don't think that moving the fanservice from MSQ to side content would hinder the story- I think it would be a net positive. It would be out of the way of players not seeking that kind of experience, while still allowing Square to write the characters in that way.

At the end of the day, Square ultimately decides what they write in their scenario. And they decided to go with giving NPCs these kinds of moments. They could have held fast and stuck with their vision, but at the end of the day, they wouldn't have written it if it wasn't what they wanted.

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Originally Posted by CosmosNovaRose

I feel like a part of my intent was missed..

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I understood what you were suggesting, but my point is it'd still be contributing to a core problem FFXIV currently suffers from in terms of overindulging fan whims to the detriment of other areas that need prioritising, and the writing, tone and development of the game would be influenced and suffer regardless. It'd end up becoming a parody of itself, and it just doesn't belong, full stop; it's Final Fantasy, not a dating sim, and you're kidding yourself if you think discreetly shoving it off into side content won't affect anything or not make the problem worse.

They may have decided to play into it to a degree, but I think Dawntrail shows just how much of a mistake that was and now we have the situation where the only people who are happy are shippers and doting Twitter fans while everyone else is miserable. Adding more of that sort of content, side quest or no, would only be an even bigger mistake.

When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. That is what FFXIV is trying to do now. There seems to be no creative passion and it's like they are reacting to surveys and forums instead.

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Originally Posted by SushiOishiiii

When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. That is what FFXIV is trying to do now. There seems to be no creative passion and it's like they are reacting to surveys and forums instead.

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Not sure they're even properly reacting to surveys and forums. More like reacting to random 3-like posts that get ratioed by 60-like disagreements on JP forums. Just look at Viper.

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Originally Posted by CosmosNovaRose

On its own, a boat ride together is one thing- but preceding it was searching for a wedding ring, discussing a proposal for a loved one who you were separated from in life and death, and not wanting to pass on without expressing those feelings. G'raha then laments on wishing he spent one more day with someone he lost in life- and I think it was meant to imply the WoL in the doomed timeline, so the subject matter is fitting with the aforementioned NPC couple. A gondola is also a very romantic trope- we can even ride one for the Ceremony of Eternal Bonding. The canals were in "a land of romance and pleasure".

The framing really sold me on that this interpretation was intentional on Square's part. And I feel like, while I am enjoying the tease, it might be for the best if they tone it down for the future. If they want to keep exploring this thread with him and keep writing these sorts of interactions for him and other popular characters, I believe it should be kept out of MSQ and moved to optional content.

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If they put it in any content, even optional, it would become more than headcanon. There are people in my life I have loved and wish I could spend one more day with - like my grandmother. I don't wish I'd have married my grandmother. It's entirely possible that places like described here can make different people think of others outside of those they want a romantic relationship with.

I just want to say that is a great scene, and the kind of character musing I was sorely missing in this expansion. The characters have a lot of experience to compare against, so it would make sense for them to occasionally speculate in the way G'raha does. The "opposing" Scions kind of did this with their claimant as well, but it wasn't as well executed for me and came across as a little bit preachy.

I'm not commenting on romance at all and I have no interest in romance between the main cast, so far anyway.

Exploration of character relationships in an MMO should be left to the imagination of the player through whatever expression they so choose, not within the actual game itself.

There are a couple of reasons why I believe we shouldn't have any overt romantic aspects between the player character and important NPCs.

1: your personal experience is not universal. People will like, dislike and feel neutral towards any given character. Part of romance is the characterization of the two individuals and how they work in a relationship. They're flaws and all. You cannot account for the complexity and depth of relationship with so many factors at hand. What you'll end up with is very surface level and will please no one because it will come off as shallow and 'honeymoon cartoon-esque'. This also has the possibility to break immersion for a lot of people and denies character growth. If you're expected to 'have' a relationship with the person then how are you going to respond when they make bad decisions?

2: it's not a good use of resources. As already stated, there are people who just don't want to or aren't interested in engaging in stories revolving around romances with NPCs. The side quests proposed would add very little to the story or flesh out the world and if they did, they would be gatekeeping people who aren't comfortable with that sort of content.

3: it's fine to have heart-to-heart moments between characters and players but it can only ever truly be on the NPC's side as it is the only side the writers have a voice to express THEIR character's desires, dreams, aspirations, fears, etc. You're free to interpret the interactions however you please but, as far as narrative goes, in order to appeal to the majority of players, the writers have to keep it open and as neutral as possible. You are not expected to, but encouraged to fill in responses to characters with your own imagination but, at the end of the day, the WOL is a blank slate and they, by default, cannot truly have interpersonal relationships with characters without impacting the narrative and all player's immersion. The inclusion of any optional character relationships negates the player's (already) limited agency.

4: Square Enix will never be able to, meaningfully, kill off a character again. This has already been proven with the team is already too afraid to kill off characters post Heavensward to shake things up (not that I believe they will ever do so again regardless). It forces the character to be present in the narrative to some capacity and would, inevitably, take away from the narrative that they want to tell. In other words, they're here to stay to the possible detriment of the base game's story.

I think they should just open up ceremonies of eternal bonding to NPC’s and then have the NPC sometimes be at your house and give you dialogue or otherwise if they aren’t at your house the ring just teleports you to where they currently are

Like my WOL I headcanon with deryk

I don’t mind the scene with graha at all as my WOL is aware of graha’s unrequited crush and I don’t see it as pandering that much, especially since if you play a male WOL it also works very well as a healthy representation of male friendship that is not romantic

So yeah I’d leave anything more than that out of the MSQ but allow for eternal bonding with the majority of the named NPC’s

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Originally Posted by Sayari

I'm a shameless G'raha shipper too, but I get where the players against it are coming from. I do have to wonder, though, were you guys against the dinner scene with Aymeric, or Estinien striding into the WoL's room in leather pants with his shirt open? I felt like those scenes implied there might be something, but they didn't go far enough to show it or point it out. It was left to the player to decide. I'm a huge fan of this type of scene and think it answers both sides.

I wasn't thrilled with the gondola scene, though. I watched it and watched it and rewatched it (yeah, I know, what can I say.) G'raha was looking right at the WoL when he was talking about wanting to spend just one more joyous day with someone, but I didn't get the feeling that he was referring to the WoL - the WoL is right there. Really, it could have been a child, a friend, a brother, a love interest - we get no other context. To me, it felt more like a romantic setup that was snatched away when he started talking about someone else and it irked me. I would have preferred that they kept it a bit more generic and left it a scene that could have been interpreted either way.

But, based on the debate here, maybe it is. Me, I just really want my WoL to be able to call him Raha and give him that tour of Ishgard. Please Squenix.

P.S. It also bugs the heck out of me that a character as well crafted as the Exarch has become more or less a food meme. Please stop with that.

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Ships should stay ships, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with questionable scenes like the one with Estinien or the one with Aymeric, but I really think that the shipping community is something that shouldn't be catered to, and getting to marry NPCs would be just that.

If you really like certain npcs, cool, there's lots of ways to express yourself in that regard, you can write fanfics, draw art, learn how to gpose your WoL with the aforementioned character through means I am not allowed to mention, really there's lots of avenues you can go down, but game development time is better spent doing meaningful things like maybe removing job restrictions on glamours or adding something completely new to the game.

As someone mentioned above, obsessing over fanservice can ruin a game, and this game isn't really meant to be fanservice-ey in that way. Yes we have quests that involve the characters and yes we may have private chats with the characters, but the dialogue is ultimately friendly and you can headcanon it as romantic if you really want to.

I really don't want this community to turn into Honkai Star Rail's where it's just all obsessing with Firefly (Female character) and shipping her with the male MC and how the MSQ is annoyingly fanservice-ey and trying to shove a ship down our throats.

There's an abundance of resources you can use to scratch that itch if you want a romance with a certain NPC, we don't need to get the overworked devs involved so you can marry your 2d character.