Make Deployment Tactics DPS Neutral

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Ok, we're done. I wasn't talking about total damage neutrality, I went out of my way to say that I want that neutrality to be on a cooldown - just like OGCDs. There's not any more I can do.

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You mentioned the lily spells, and you mentioned it would help reduce the amount of filler spam we're doing. You are aware that WHM still spends 70-80% of their GCDs using their spam filler, yes? So how often do you want these damage neutral options to become available to cut into the filler spam? Certainly a lot more than every 20 seconds if you intend to cut the filler spam down to a more reasonable 50%? Does that not end up being so often that it reduces the thought required to plan everything out?

I cannot lay it out clearer than that. Take it or don't.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You mentioned the lily spells, and you mentioned it would help reduce the amount of filler spam we're doing. You are aware that WHM still spends 70-80% of their GCDs using their spam filler, yes? So how often do you want these damage neutral options to become available to cut into the filler spam? Certainly a lot more than every 20 seconds if you intend to cut the filler spam down to a more reasonable 50%? Does that not end up being so often that it reduces the thought required to plan everything out?

I cannot lay it out clearer than that. Take it or don't.

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Oh, so you've already moved that far have you? I am glad we agree and that you are actually in favor of Lily heals and therefore of neutral GCD options in general.

Moving a neutral healing cooldown from OGCD to GCD doesn't reduce total choice-making whatsoever. It does increase GCD variety.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Oh, so you've already moved that far have you? I am glad we agree and that you are actually in favor of Lily heals and therefore of neutral GCD options in general.

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I guess you don't want a discussion, that's fine, I disagree, we move on.

Besides, if SE wants to give SGE the SCH treatment in terms of having choices, Rhizomata should instead be giving MP at the cost of 1 Addersgall stack.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

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I argue that healing atm is pretty brainless. Mechs in higher difficulty are 99 % body checks anyway so doesn’t matter how good you actual heal if a person dies at a key point in time you can’t recover. Like we can take top for example. You can ogcd heal almost all mechs and have enough downtime for some gcd heals that aren’t even a dps loss. Or p12 were you have for all mechs ogcd tools if you have decent co healer.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?



Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

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Yeah I would love too have a choose in more then just the healing department, because let’s be honest as long as the fights are 100 % scripted we will never have really meaningful choice. Doesn’t matter if its as healer, tank or dps. There will always be a optimal rotation and gcd/ogcd buttons (and yes removing ogcd and dmg neutral heals will just swap these buttons for a medica I or II or maybe even cure 3 but ff14 had that problem since years). It’s hard too think that actually changing healing and not the dps rotation would change the healer role in any meaningful way because let’s be honest pressing 4 times medica or 4 times glare isn’t different in any way shape or form in my eyes

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Originally Posted by rawker

Besides, if SE wants to give SGE the SCH treatment in terms of having choices, Rhizomata should instead be giving MP at the cost of 1 Addersgall stack.

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Atleast make kardia meaningful. Or in general make the unique aspect of the healers way more different. Astro= time magic and fate with cards.
Sch= battle tactics and fairy. Sgn= Kardia and changing way more heals/dps spells with eukrasis. Whm= Astra elemental magic with wind/water and earth spells.

Like every healing spell is either single target or aoe. I miss a healing spell that bounce after watch heal or something we’re my position has a impact because it’s something I send out from my position. There are ways making the role interesting the problem is that they have only 4 job designer and they have no clue about anything healer because on one of them is a healer player.

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Originally Posted by rawker

This. The only reason for the conception and implementation of D3ployment tactics is that it is working with Eye for an Eye. Now that it is no longer a thing, it no longer makes sense to use it to deploy Adlo anymore. Instead, it is more logical to make it give Catalyze effect to Succor... preventing pesky SGEs to overwrite it so easily.

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Call me that person who just wanna watch the world to burn if you will: I kinda wish they keep it this way because it gives me a reason to communicate… or a reason to just chad them if they keep overwriting. ;)

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

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This problem is a bit more nuanced than dps refund or not. Frankly, healing skills being a DPS loss/partial refund actually results in less choices in the current design because there's really no decision to be had when the current meta of healing is lossless healing via healing abilities (oGCD healing). You choose the less expensive choice, which ultimately ends up being free healing without dps cost. The current problem with healing brings 2 states of failure for engagement:

1. You have too many healing skills and choices that most of them doesn't matter. However, with both oGCD heals and DPS neutral healing, at least you CAN choose which heal you want to optimize healing efficiency when things go bad. However, that becomes an illusion of choice if consistent damage is severely lacking.
2. When you have different cost in damage refund, it ultimately becomes "what is the least expensive cost skill to heal with?" And in the current state with all this oGCD healing, the choice is so linear that damage refund skills can become a static healing rotation -- which is the worst choice for a playstyle that wants to adapt to situations like a healer. Likewise, turning all skills into a DPS refund is basically a convoluted method to reducing the amount of damage on your nuke and turning your damage refund skills into the new "oGCD healing" priority buttons. I wouldn't call that really engaging since it's basically the healer way to look at 1-2-3 rotations. Though if it just becomes all partial refunds that does damage greater than your nuke in one GCD, we might just end up saving it all on a burst window, so it still becomes 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 until then.

The reason why partial dps loss works on SCH so well is because Scholar addresses both of these issues and can get a DPS gain when they manage their aetherflow skills properly rather than always facing a partial DPS loss -- without compromising on adaptive play. Scholar faces skill lockout throughout its toolkit (soft locks like Aetherpact, Hard locks like Dissipation and Seraph), and this is what makes the current state of Scholar where everything becomes a 'tactical' balancing act work. On top of trying to manage a DPS gain, they also have to consider changing their strategies if people suddenly start taking avoidable damage while facing skill lockout. There becomes choice with the change in combat rather than a static rotation which always grants a partial DPS gain/loss via aetherflow.

Though, considering how some people dislike skill lockout (dissipation), that's not a playstyle I think everyone will enjoy and doesn't need to be replicated on other healers.

But because damage is generally low and scripted, a lot of SCH end up facing the illusion of choice anyway in simple content because they never need to adapt when everyone knows what to do.