Cool concept, but there would be a few issues to translate DD over to PvP. Namely, jobs that rely on silence and various CC to supplement their gameplay. PvP doesn't rely so much on auto attacks rather than consistently casting skills/weaponskills. Mobs in PvE naturally just move to the target with aggro with all disregard for terrain and have very little interrupts. If mobs rely only on skills to attack, status effects like silence was done similarly in PvP, and elevation of terrain can help provide a geographical advantage for ranged jobs and such for mobs to take more time to reach the player, then gameplay could be very interesting and fix all those aforementioned issues. As far as NIN LB goes, it's probably more difficult to balance this against bosses due to the nature of how NIN LB works -- but that's assuming there's only 1 boss has a gigantic big HP bar and they use the same old formula that makes DD really monotonous and stale.
Now, what if the boss was split into multiple mobs with various amounts of HP and they're all considered part of a boss's HP bar? Something akin to Shinyru's tail and suffers damage to the boss when it is defeated, except the tail can fight, move, and act independently. Suddenly, NIN LB wouldn't be as problematic imo. Stuff like SAM LB won't be able to delete bosses with huge HP bars, but they can do a lot of damage to them due to the nature of how SAM LB scales. The same applies to DRG LB, where it gains more value by the nature of being an AoE LB.
WAR LB nullifies guard and prevents status inflictions, so designing enemies that could guard and apply status effects would probably go a long way into making this mode more dynamic and fun too.
Healing will be very interesting considering everyone will have access to both Recuperation and Elixir. It will encourage party play and allowing others to create some distance to recover their HP and MP. I think I would enjoy that kind of gameplay.
Pomanders and the method to queue into this kind of DD would probably have to be reworked to a certain extent though. PvP toolkits do not have "raise", rather players auto-revive after 10s. PvP toolkits rely more on recovery and pacing / attrition, so stuff like vulnerability up wouldn't work very well. They would have to either rework the pomanders, the phoenix down system, or allow some form of way to raise more effectively.
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10-04-2023, 02:47 AMAnotherPerson
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10-04-2023, 04:03 AMShurrikhanThis. If you give a PvP kit without the PvP mechanics (being usable by the mobs), too... that's most of the value left on the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
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10-04-2023, 04:12 AMPayadopaRight? That's actually a great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormpeaks
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10-04-2023, 04:53 AMAbsimiliardI mean, they used to make mobs that would stun, silence, sleep, or otherwise debuff the absolute crap out of you. I'm not sure why they stopped, but I'd love to see them brought back. Preferably more intelligently than in prior design, by which I mean the mobs utilizing their abilities at the best possible times to screw players over. A good example might be a boss or particularly powerful trash mob deciding to land a tankbuster then immediately stunning the healer so the tank is unable to be healed before the next auto - or interrupting, should the healer be hard casting a heal instead of using something instant. Could even start throwing in stuff like slowing or stunning random party members during major mechanics to leave them at risk of imminent unavoidable death (or at least a ton of damage) if the healer doesn't yoink them out of harm's way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Of course, the above would have to be adjusted in the event someone went in alone. Otherwise they'd probably just get massacred outright. -
10-04-2023, 05:14 AMShurrikhanThat's not exactly the kind of "intelligence" I'd most look forward to among mobs, as the result often means less player agency and more chore-like rather than risk-reward-centric gameplay. But I definitely do want more complex fights. I just feel that "complex" and/or "rewarding" fights come down to the actions they permit among players and depth of consideration they reward, rather than anything directly to do with the efficacy of the AI itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
If a mob has an interrupt, for instance, I want that to be a constraint/point of available optimization for party coordination and positioning, rather than just something that prevents the use of hard casts in any tight situation (need to heal now or tank dies) [just reduces available complexity in a span of moments] and/or something you make sure to bait out onto CD before doing anything risky [chore-ish, though not awful if neither too long nor too short a CD].
Make it so you can body-block mobs and said interrupt is a melee, though, and you can easily have those benefits and more, with none of the situational losses to available complexity. You could maybe even bait a hard-cast heal to peel a mob towards you (the healer) before using an instant-cast spell or ability instead anyways, or have a Paladin feint a Clemency to take the interrupt early when he's not about to Req anyways. Etc., etc. -
10-04-2023, 05:24 AMAbsimiliardThis is a fair take, and I do for the most part agree with it. I was suggesting the implementation of brutal AI under the auspices of what's been suggested in the thread. I.e. PvP kits and all that, so you aren't totally screwed if a mob tries to lock you down. Outside of that, I'd definitely have a preference for what you're espousing here. There is little fun in fighting something that can just tell you no whenever it wants while you have little actual ability to do anything about it, whereas something that has great complexity which can at times be turned against it offers plenty of opportunities for optimization and thinking outside the box. Unfortunately, thinking outside the box is something FFXIV in its present state doesn't really encourage or reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
On the flip side, I do feel it would be appropriate to design some mechanics that involve bosses actively trying to trick players. A good example might be a telegraphed faux tankbuster to bait cooldowns or maybe trick a healer into pre-casting something big. These would of course need proper tells to give people a chance, and they're not something we would want to see implemented often. One could even go a step further by making the bait ability possible to interrupt, perhaps with the added effect of inflicting a short-lived debuff (damage taken up, maybe? or damage dealt down) to the enemy if players read the situation and react properly. -
10-04-2023, 06:07 AMMinarisweet
I hate shatter because hitting the pvp skills on a dummy for 20 minutes is kind of boring so I doubt I would like this too, pvp kits only really feel fun against other players... to me anyway.
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10-04-2023, 03:07 PMRenathras
To be fair, there are some complications - the OHKO abilities would have to be modified (to be fair, I hate those in PvP, too, but...that's beside the point). I was more thinking how people like things like Seraph Strike, Deployment Tactics, etc being short CDs and a lot of the "bundled abilities" where a button does what 2-4 buttons in PvE do.
It would be a neat experiment since it would be side content, so no one would need to engage with it, but it would give a test run for what PvP abilities do and don't work in PvE, and if the kits, or parts of them, are fun to have in PvE. Worst case scenario, we have a DD, content increasingly fewer people are playing anyway, that's a flop...but so was Orthos, so the worst case isn't really all that bad if you think about it. Best case scenario, they see what parts of the PvP kits can be use in PvE and may nudge the PvE game into more interesting directions with more active abilities and shorter CDs instead of the 2 min meta. I'm not really seeing a lot of downsides. Not to mention the DD formula has gotten pretty stale, so something to really shake it up is what people are already calling for.
But it really was just a random thought with no serious work or thought into it that seemed kinda coo and was just like "Huh...that doesn't sound so bad, actually. Wonder what other people think?" -
10-04-2023, 03:09 PMSyln
How about deep dungeon but it's turn base combat ? :3
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10-04-2023, 03:32 PMShurrikhanSame story. Would be a fun variation... if given appropriate context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syln
There would have to be turn-by-turn gambles available, not just rote execution, else our GCDs already basically provide that and more.