Hot take but I don't think that a physr having a cast time is inherently a bad idea. Honestly if they brought back cast times with a rework for bard or with a new physr and made it like how it is in pvp where they can still walk while casting, I think that would be pretty neat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
From Meleewalker to Meleetrail
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08-01-2023, 11:18 PMRychu
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08-02-2023, 02:56 AMSaberMaxwell
Hey if all ranged had cast times I'd be down. Honestly I'm of the opinion that casters should be casting more, although Endwalker's fight design often forgets it has players who don't have infinite movement options.
Personally I'm interested to see what the new caster is and what they plan to do. Cynically I see them moving in the opposite direction Lyth would like, instead of merging the ranged altogether (which I disagree with but I'm just a caster / melee main so I guess I'm biased :shrug:) they're instead gonna crack the caster role in half along the lines of "raise caster" and "damage caster."
In my ideal world raise is just removed from the role and damage is overall increased but that's because I think casters need to either be as mobile as phys ranged or do more damage, because otherwise they get completely dropped from meta as has happened for almost two entire expansions in a row. Heck even today you can see the most popular "caster" by far has no cast times basically, SMN's savage population totalling RDM's and BLM's combined. And when they keep designing fights like casters are all as mobile as SMN I can see why; Program Loop and Panto are absolute nightmares in TOP, Abyssos was relentless in its hatred of casters, and I can see a few mechanics in Anabeisos that would be frustrating but I got to melee this tier and lemme tell you its been blessedly easy as melee.
My other chief worry is that they'll keep adding insta casts to casters and making them more mobile, which if they all become as mobile as SMN instead of them kneecapping SMN and stealing their nikes, then yeah their damage should have parity with phys ranged. Like they currently do bar BLM I guess. -
08-02-2023, 05:56 AMRychuDude omg I feel so heard right now. P12S is so unfriendly to Red Mage's burst window since I'm required to be in melee range for my burst. Weeeeeelllll Superchain Theory I and Caloric II both involve R2 being removed from the boss so my damage gets fucked both times unless I have the group adjust for me, and even then I do less damage than I do when I switch to Summoner. Something has to give, either they lean away from the melee phase that sorta defines the job and is honestly super fun to do for movement or change fight design to allow more leniency in spacing, which they DEFINITELY wont do. Wouldn't be surprised if we got a mini reworkQuote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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08-02-2023, 09:57 AMForsakenRoe
Combining PhysRanged and MagicRanged into one 'Ranged' category would not necessitate adding cast times to the Physical Ranged jobs. It'd just mean that a party would be looking for 2 tanks/healers/melee/ranged. How often have people been in PF, looking for one slot to fill, going 'does anyone in this game still play ranged, we'll even take a MCH come onnnnn'? I've also had to be in the position of telling someone 'sorry, we need a Physranged for the 1%' in prog, because that 1% is what will get us past enrage, and getting a 2Melee/RDM/SMN comp would mean we're below the check, and that feels terrible
Besides that, SMN is now down to 4 cast times per minute (3 if you swiftcast one), yet it remains in the 'Caster' role, because it's not actually a 'Caster', but a 'Magical Ranged DPS'. Cast times are not inherent to any particular role, the main damage type they use is what differentiates them. Else we'd have to call RPR and SAM some kind of 'Caster' thanks to Iaijutsu and Communio, and that would be silly
Personally I'd be fine with the 2 ranged archetypes combining, because I'm really not a fan of a role being kept on lifesupport for raiding by the fact it brings 1% stat boost to the group. 'A certain other MMO' does not make the distinction between it's physical ranged and magic ranged specs (well, Hunter's the only Phys they have, I guess), I've never known why we do -
08-02-2023, 11:05 AMSaberMaxwell
I wish I had your problems, Forsaken, rather than issues of "why would we accept you into the party as RDM, you do less damage than every phys ranged but dancer and you're a liability to the group and its strats compared to the free running SMN". Personally I've never really the issue you do, its fairly easy to find a smn and a phys ranged.
Also yes, we do colloquially call them casters but in reality they're called magical ranged. My stance remains that magical ranged dps should be bound tightly by casting mechanics, (EDIT: and the place smn is in right now is a travesty for many reasons) but any world where they're competing with phys ranged for a spot will necessitate SMN levels of mobility (barf) because by the time casters have enough for the mobility cost to be diminished the phys ranged are launched from the see-saw.
And I feel you Rychu. Red Mages have it tough a lot of the time this expac. Ironic that this game so melee-heavy screws the melee-caster over so bad. -
08-02-2023, 03:19 PMkayllFeels like a lot of fights this ends up happening,2minute burst comes around and its time for mechanics with strict positions and you are placed out of range every time, and every time it feels awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rychu
At this point the only things I want for RDM skill wise in the new expansion is reskinned melee combos with additional range, I mean they are utilizing magic right?
That and a personal shield so I don't fall over to unavoidable raidwides that everyone else lives,with the rest of my group asking if I flipped into the wall or something. -
08-02-2023, 06:26 PMValencePerhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rychu
I'd have just been okay with SAM/RPR like casts: 1.5s cast for Apex Arrow, 1s cast for Drill, Anchor, Chainsaw... Perhaps a cast time for Starfall, but DNC burst can sometimes get crammed to the brim with things to weave already.
But that won't honestly change anything. It's not gonna be a huge constraint at all (are Iajutsus or Communio really a hurdle to overcome? lolno), and it's gonna be obvious to everyone that nothing will change in terms of balance, unless they really turn every rphys into a proper caster (HW style). And i'm staunchly opposed to that. I don't play rphys to spend my time casting, else I'd play a caster. I play it for proc/priorities and hopefully engaging rotations, which it has... kinda lost over time sadly. -
08-02-2023, 06:39 PMValenceHow about NO? I don't want to play a caster, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Give me iajutsu like moves, or some pvp cast times SPARSELY, I'm game, but don't turn me into an actual caster.
And tbh it's not gonna happen due to the backlash it would generate, like back in HW. They learned the lesson, but people are quick to forget.
Agreed. Rphys rotations should make up for it by being more complex and engaging like they used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
That's already kinda the case and it's the stuff of balance nightmares.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Only Endwalker. Casters have strived in ShB and were able to match the top group of damage dealers (aka melees), with perhaps the exception of RDM that has always lagged behind historically since its inception, but was still able to out damage any rphys job period, until EW/today (rip RDM, always in the grave). Anyway, welcome to the mobility tax hell, SMN friendos. I'm sure you like it as much as we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
That's a bit rose tinted. Savage Pantokrator was already a mobility annoyance for every caster in existence (healers included). And that's not the only mechanic of before ShB/EW. The only savages were mobility was less of a thing in my opinion happened before SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
You also have to take into consideration that every caster had a lot less mobility tools, BLM included (esp BLM). How did people cope with it? They just did, and had not full uptime, but those days, it frustrates people just to think about it. -
08-02-2023, 07:28 PMSaberMaxwell
Let me start on the last bit: "in TOP." The latest Ultimate released in Endwalker based on Stormblood raids. Unless you really are just talking about pre-ShB raiding in which case I apologize, Panto being prominent in both is a bit of a difficult thing to interpret.
I don't disagree but for most of Stormblood and Heavensward you had the piercing meta, and thus usually ran no caster DPS at all. Heavensward and Stormblood, of course, being the two expansions I mean when I say that casters vanished from meta teams entirely up until late Stormblood where Summoner started to attain some popularity. So really most didn't cope with it and did fine because you just didn't take a casting dps in the first place.
Now re: cast times) that's fair enough, and in the world we're in where phys range and magic range aren't vying for the same spot I agree. In lieu of that, more complex rotations is a good substitute. I'll always miss StB MCH.
Re: raise) I know and I hate it as well, I don't think that would stop SE from officiating it and then pretending all is well.
Re: endwalker) nope. Throughout most of HW and StB the piercing meta was in full effect and there was no good reason to take a caster who had to suffer cast times when you could roll deep with piercing drg, mch and brd and bouncing crit buffs back and forth across each other (brd, drg and sch). It was supremely busted and very hard to keep up with for the non phys ranged, although Summoner eventually did.
What I will add though is I don't want casters to lose casting any more than you want phys ranged to have it. I'm not advocating for any of that, however I am saying that EW fight design tends to pack tons of movement mechanics back to back with little regard for any caster not named SMN. Not every mechanic is terrible but standouts off the top of my head are p7s's marathoning back and forth, p4s's pinax, p8s' fourfold flames (especially how pugs do it), TOP's well, all of p1 sucks for anyone with cast times (hell even SAM has issues at points).
I defer to Rychu for Anabeisos struggles since I haven't had the pleasure of casting this tier, although I can imagine how bad superchain 1 and cal 2 screw RDM over in specific. -
08-02-2023, 09:13 PMUkcsAliasRanged dps suffers from the issue of being the middle between the 2: Casters have cast times, melee has positionals. Both mechanics that make positioning themselve as part of the balance. By not having such restriction, you generaly will only end up with the rotation itself as downtime by forced movement isnt an issue. And micro positioning which a melee dps often can do usualy also barely matters (wall boss, or the boss barely rotates because the tank rarely needs to dodge in such way it causes boss rotations).Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
To me the best way to solve the ranged dps issue, is by introducing some sort of positional system in them.
Something like a minimum range: being further away increases damage, but increases risks of extended downtime when you need to move out of the way. Automaticly also giving a certain situation in which you can be sure they are prefered, or discouraged. Damage at that point then can be allowed to exceed other jobs since depending on the fight, you might not be able to use that, or since it gets used more often might promote it.
You can also simply make it 2 buttons: close range/long range and force the players to alternate them for higher damage. This makes a certain distance from the boss optimal, and can provide similar restrictions to the melee dpses (like wall bosses not providing a back).