It was mostly in reference to it having to be MORE of a grind than anything else otherwise, I just wanted to add more to my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubrication
EDIT: Also I am sorry I was being facetious about people not caring, as in they didn't care about PvP in general not the rewards per se. Compared to now with the Series pass and how they structured it by not having to play Feast/CC, more people are interested in doing it at least for the rewards.
You are saying it was somehow a struggle for people to grind Feast and that it was "hard", but we can still clearly go back and check those rankings.
The #1 person in Aether Season 1 of Feast only played 232 matches....
The #12 person, meaning just outside of getting the crown for that particular glamour set only played 104 matches.
If we are just talking Top 100 in general, the grind was basically trivial, the lowest I see on Aether was a person who got it by just playing 58 matches......
They stop tracking win rates after Season 5 but it sounds like you are blowing the grind required of Feast way out of proportion, at least in terms of the expectations of the grind that people should be expected to do in return now if they were implemented.
I should also point out how excessive your expected grind would be for one item as you say. The current Series pass only gives 28,000 trophy crystals before looping. You are saying ONE piece of an old set should cost 30,000 up to 60,000 or 50,000 by your Wolf Collar example. Again....for one piece by your logic.
That doesn't seem reasonable at all, even for one SET let alone one PIECE of the sets...
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By my own standards for examples, a mount even at 20,000 would take up most of a person's entire Series pass worth of trophy crystals. This means people who have most of what they want would still need to do most of it and keep playing assuming they also implement "new" stuff at the same time.
And it means anyone who missed out on other stuff and playing catch up on other trophy crystal rewards would have a reason to maybe want to keep looping. OR that gives them a reason to come back and play more next Series.
If the glamour sets were 14k or 15k, they could basically get 2 sets if they completely grinded the whole thing which takes some dedication, and if they do it as 15k that means if they want an extra set they have to loop at least twice which is an incentive for people to keep playing. Which should be a goal the developers want and still seems reasonably obtainable for people.
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05-30-2023, 01:01 PMzeth07
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05-30-2023, 06:04 PMNubrication
It was definitely waay harder than CC. Feast games required way more coordination and if your melee or healer sucked, it was basically a loss unless the other team had the same issue. If you had both a melee AND healer that sucked, it’s 100% a loss. You had four players and losing even one teammate was extremely detrimental, usually domino affecting into a loss. The games drained the crap out of people that played. The healers especially. That’s the reason pure healers are no longer a thing as per squenix. So yes, the grind was 100x worse compared to CC.
You’re using Nex Cross as an example lol, he was the best monk in NA (probably still is). Any feast game or FL, he would dominate. I’m talking about going 20+ kills in FL consistently.
Basically yes, I think that there should be a long grind for people to obtain what T100 feast players had to work for. Those games were much more stressful and grindier than CC. It was more of grind because you can actually lose tier rank, any tier. Which means you can drop from diamond all the way to bronze by consistently losing. And in order to get back to the tier you were in, you had to play placement matches (best out of 3 or 5, I forgot, it was so long ago for me), if you lose the placement matches, you don’t rank up. That was the struggle of climbing to top 100, it was getting to diamond in the first place. It’s not like CC where everyone can get to crystal by just playing a ton.
To reiterate, I’m all for the items and mounts being available but just not for “free”. Compare it to the Bozjan law’s order armor sets or the eureka armor sets, those take a grind too. -
05-30-2023, 09:58 PMReinhardt_Azureheim
Imagine asking for rerelease of what is essentially a Trophy and a prestige from Top 100 for anything less than playing Ranked. Eugh.
I don't mind the idea of replicas, but Trophy Crystals are not the right way to go. I understand people hating on time-limited rewards, but turning what is ideally a badge of honour into a free hand-out... no. Just no. -
05-30-2023, 11:42 PMTheGrimace
I think it's easy to "imagine" when a lot of the people who got those rewards did so through win trading back when PVP was much more maligned in the game. I also contend against the idea of seeing them as "free hand-outs" in that case because you still have to put forth the effort to get the Trophy Crystals in such a scenario, but there is the fact that most TCs are given just through playing the game and not through wins.
Yes, those that won the rewards legitimately back then should feel a sense of pride, but it's been several years and I don't think those items should be completely lost to time. Especially when many got the rewards through less than legitimate means. -
05-31-2023, 12:57 AMReinhardt_AzureheimWhile I understand your reasoning, it honestly feels like the weight of it leans too heavily on "wintraders and cheaters poisoned the well" when I highly doubt more than 25% at most on those leaderboards were involved in those activities. If we use a fraction of the leaderboard being bad actors as reasoning, where will we draw the line? Why does Ranked Exclusivity have to die, in a japanese game no less?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrimace
The reason I oppose Trophy Crystals is because it is essentially a bottomless supply currency obtainable from any gamemode, even if you lose every single match.
The Commendation Crystals from Ranked are a step in the right direction however. What it needs is a wider range of ranks being able to access them like Wolf Collars originally were. -
05-31-2023, 01:10 AM4clubbedaceits not a hand out if it takes a shit ton of time to grind to be bale to get, the other badge of honor, ultimates never go awayQuote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
just make them cost a ton of wolf collars , idk, 50 -
05-31-2023, 01:41 AMReinhardt_AzureheimComparing Ultimates and Top X Ranked is comparing apples to oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4clubbedace
For starters an Ultimate is not a competition vs other players, it is a challenge in form of a boss gauntlet designed by the devs. So no matter what you do, you have to kill it to get the actual reward. For the rewards to have meaning there is little reason to time gate it - the raiding community however holds the world first race in higher regards as a supplement.
Short, its a challenge, not a competition vs other players. There are no losers, only clearers or yet-to-be-clearers.
Ranked PvP in any game for that matter means someone will be at the top and someone else will be below them. Fundamentally it is a competition. The difficulty of Ranked PvP is not arbitrarily set by developers but rather scales with player skill currently present on the leaderboard. For a High Rank reward to make sense here, there needs to be a clear difference between who wins the Trophy and who doesnt, otherwise it is a rotating participation reward.
Short, to PvP means to compete, the difficulty is set by the players and the definition of earning the rewards in ranked is (supposed) to be better than other players.
So what do you think will happen when what is considered a Trophy designating season best to one is being copied and given to some Dipshit Mcthrowington who loses up to 100% of their matches and gets it at about 77% of the speed as someone who wins 100% of their matches, both starting from 0?
For reference, the equivalent to this would be starting to roll out an Ultimate totem vendor where you trade in materials worth like 100,000 or 200,000 poetics. Sure it takes a shitton of time to grind, but why should the person who grinds Aetherochemical Research Facility all day ever have access to a Golden Bahamut weapon without ever stepping foot into it? Just because they THEORETICALLY can always go back and do it?
Again, Im ok with replicas. Im not ok with Trophy Crystals. You want what is ranked reward, play ranked and earn Ranked currency. -
05-31-2023, 02:08 AM4clubbedaceBolded talking pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
Worlds race does not matter and never will matter, its a degree of bragging rights, but means next to nothing. In fact id like for it to matter less.
Zero sum games for a mmo do not feel good, ever, at all. Learning i could not have a chance to get a mount at all because iw asnt playing thsi game 4 years ago? actually awful, i dont like season passes for the same reason if you cant "buy" what the rewards were after the fact. it doesnt help that the old ranked prizes it was limited to 100 people PER server
theres a reason martial art tournaments offer a trophy (which while made of gold or precious metal, not really that special outside bragging and put down in historical record) and cash prizes. They dont offer a limited yamaha motorcycle of which only 20 were ever made.
tbh if you clear an ultimate at least once i wouldnt mind if they had it so you could keep buying totems of that ult through other means, the one clear got the title, which is more of the bragging point than the weapon itself -
05-31-2023, 04:26 AMCommander_JustitiaAlright, some Feast Lore.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeth07
1.) There was no max ranking. If you got lucky and had good win series, it was actually beneficial to ride it out and not play anymore. Or you got a loss series and demoted, well sucks! The people with 90 wins and who quit were just good.
https://i.imgur.com/d4BuUOW.png
https://i.imgur.com/xwAqq5D.png
2. It was more complex. I would say more difficult for people to play. Which made it an activity you couldnt grind, because you needed to be actually somewhat present with your brain. There was also critical damage possible, as well as positionals and a shorter melee skill range. As well as having TP for sprint and weaponskills. And gear actually mattered.
https://i.imgur.com/SHY8kR0.png
https://i.imgur.com/6G4WoMM.png
https://i.imgur.com/VZgkITW.png
But SE didn't like it, because casual players were not happy.
https://i.imgur.com/DD2iZXk.png
So now we got something like this instead.
https://i.imgur.com/G3kbrV1.png
Peak gameplay or? At least the queues are fast I guess and the gamemode fun enough for casual stuff. But I would say it is not suitable for competetive envrionment at all.
3. It was way easier to do big mistakes due to the nature of PvP back then. So if you didnt know what you are doing, you gonna lose every match.
Example being a bard using their 3min CD burst buff at the start of the match before the gates even open.
https://i.imgur.com/jtj6mk6.png
Or somebody not standing in Sacred Prism while being totally bursted down.
https://i.imgur.com/fP3CnEU.png
Or somebody using lvl 1 gear or leveling gear...
https://i.imgur.com/woyWG12.png
Or you simply picked up too many medals because you are bad at math. Each stack increased dmg on you by 12%, so having 10 stacks was a death sentence.
https://i.imgur.com/bDBtEhu.png
This made skillgap an actual thing. Having knowledge paid off. It was not so much a circus where something random can happen, if the players knew what they are doing.
4. Then there was the mental stress, for some probably bigger than others. We still had chat mode, so if you lost it was likely you had some sweet talk after blaming each other, before you became best friends. SE didnt wanna deal with the reports, so they banned the chat mode...
https://i.imgur.com/Rtt8oFt.png
5. A match was actually 8 min long too, also gave 0 experience points. And it was hard to end sometimes. When you needed 1 more medal to get 600 etc.
https://i.imgur.com/TVipc2p.png
There is no equivalent of doing some cool insane plays anymore nowadays, that are totally unexpected. Like you are standing in Sacred Prism, getting holmanged out of it, but your PLD is as smart as to see that and still cover you, so the MCH cant solo kill you, as was likely back then.
https://i.imgur.com/1WHVScG.png
And that is why it is not compareable. And I would hate to see people farming wolfmarks/crystal currency to get the same top100 rewards as back then. PvP is a lot of handholding now, so you cant do that bad anymore. At least that is valid for S1-S4, where we didnt even have the datacenter split yet and sometimes seasons went for half a year or longer if I remember right.. -
05-31-2023, 09:44 AMRansu
Sorry, but no sane person liked the old system of having pve skills in pvp. I don't care how hardcore you were, that was the worst time for pvp in this game because the way pve system works simply does not translate well into pvp.