6.15 patch, still no Kaiten revert

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I hear a lot of people talking about the amount of skill this removed from the job, but wasn't Kaiten only used at one point in the rotation, without any deviation? I don't play SAM so I can't say anything for certain, but all other jobs have a static rotation that there is no deviation from so all skills have their place and you only use them when the rotation says to. There isn't a lot of decision making when it comes to skills and abilities in XIV as a whole.

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FFXIV's difficulty isn't high, but then again... what do you get when you have a certain difficulty and you remove more? -> Less.

Kaiten was a potency buff applied to every Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri requiring 20 Kenki.

• This means you need some self-restraint
• You don't want to spam your Kenki through Shinten
• Have at least enough to use 10 Kenki to dash if needed
• Do not overcap on having more then 50 when you use Ikishoten
• Transitions in fights affects what you will or want to Kaiten

Muscle memory makes anything less difficult. Just because people say it's not difficult or braindead, still makes it quite subjective.

I found Kaiten for example adding difficultly, because I didn't execute it 100% perfectly for every fight and every situation affecting how well I play Samurai. Lo and behold, this counted for many other Samurai's even though many claim there is no decision making to be made... Samurai's didn't perform this perfectly 24/7 for a good reason, because it had a layer of difficulty and decision making to it.

Unless anyone wants to convince me that Shinten-Spam, and kenki dumping is more difficult... then managing 20 Kenki for Kaiten execution perfectly for fights that can last 7 to 10 minutes.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I hear a lot of people talking about the amount of skill this removed from the job, but wasn't Kaiten only used at one point in the rotation, without any deviation? I don't play SAM so I can't say anything for certain, but all other jobs have a static rotation that there is no deviation from so all skills have their place and you only use them when the rotation says to. There isn't a lot of decision making when it comes to skills and abilities in XIV as a whole.

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By that same logic, if everything is static and there is no decision or margin for error/mistake/failure, then why doesn't every job just spam 1 button for their whole rotation? They nearly got it down pat for the healer role.

Again, the way they are going with all the jobs is that they want the role to be the baseline and then the job adds something over the baseline, so that way people can more easily learn and swap between different jobs. I think the reason Kaiten is on the watch list for feedback sort of falls into the same category as taking away the cone aoe warrior had for the circle one. The identity of Samurai isn't Kaiten but the three charge system you build from using the different combos and unleashing special attacks based on how many charges are filled.

Maybe the game is just getting to the point where there isn't much more ground to gain using the multiple job system. When I play other MMOs that are one job per character the job becomes the identity of that character, so they have to have a lot more bells and whistles on that one job vs what happens in FFXIV, where a player picks up a bunch of jobs.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

By that same logic, if everything is static and there is no decision or margin for error/mistake/failure, then why doesn't every job just spam 1 button for their whole rotation? They nearly got it down pat for the healer role.

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That really is the major design problem behind most jobs now, everything follows a very strict rotation without deviation. Once an encounter is learned, even savage and ultimate, it no longer poses any difficulty. It is all patterns to be memorized and it is why FFXIV has a huge stagnation issue. None that has cleared older content wants to go back and do it again because it's just playing a pattern they have already memorized.

I'm literally sick of playing SAM. I geared SAM I played SAM all expac. All last expac and some of SB. I geared it up, played it to damn near perfection learning literally everything about the class and how to optimize it. Made a static for DSW, then SE drops the biggest shit bomb on my class out of practically nowhere. I didn't think it would affect me as much as it does. I wanted to play monk, but we found a monk for my static. So now I'm stuck playing this class and hating it. I actually hate playing Samurai. It feels like a gutted shell of the class I played for what, almost 5 years? There's no management, there's no positional requirements, 25 kenki for every ability, auto crits kill any kind of dopamine hit I could possibly get from the class. And the worst part? I've watched buff Dir/Crit shintens hit for as much as a midare. There are parts of DSW where your SHINTEN does more damage over the phase than MIDARE. You know Midare, SE? I guess you must have forgot. Kinda crazy that it's been over a month with radio silence on the changes. I know you got another game coming out in a year that you're working on, but I think you forgot that us players over here playing 14 are literally carrying your company. I'll stay over in my corner, while you rake in my bucks.

-Kira Yaeger

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Its kinda clear that it was for this. Still didnt changed fact that sam is not great in any ultimate. Viable? There are tons of melee players and people would rather find nin (because you cant dp sam) or monk (because its literally sam but with mantra and you can dp him too) or drg (because you have nin or monk already).


No one asks just to return Kaiten, people ask for complete revert to 6.08 without bs auto crits and shinten spam.

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my static is currently progging DSU and we have a SAM (since that's his prefered job and he joined us before 6.1)
we don't have any issues hitting the DPS check as of right now (we'll get see phase 2 enrage soon, but i doubt that we're gonna have trouble hitting that DPS check either)
the 2 knights we generally kill before the paladins last holiest of holy cast, so quite a bit before true enrage and we generally finish the cone phase with that dude having 11-15% HP remaining (and 30% is the minimum to survive it)
it's viable, just doesn't sync nearly as well with other jobs as it used to unfortunately.


the problem would be that if Kaiten returns with 6.1 changes (auto crit etc) that Kaiten would either still make Iaitsu hit like a wet noodle or it would absolutely destroy balance because of it.
so if they revert straight back to 6.08 and work from there, make some changes internally, remove Kaiten there BUT start having alternatives to Kaiten (that's the main issue people are having, Kaiten brought gauge management, if just Shinten was removed the same issue would surface, Kaiten was removed and nothing was added in it's place)

keep these changes for 7.0 and BAM there's some major changes coming to SAM that we were working on through the entire expansion. (also 1 thing i'm absolutely positive on is that we need an PTS for job balancing, purely for job balancing, not for actual content, nothing will be brought over to the main game, just to test the changes before they go live)

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Originally Posted by Stasya

No one asks just to return Kaiten, people ask for complete revert to 6.08 without bs auto crits and shinten spam.

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Oi! I just want Kaiten back..
and I want the Old Tenka Goken..
and the Old Overpower..
and the Old Trick Attack..

.. you know what.. you're right kinda
It's just that I like the Enpi Changes of 6.1 ^^;

I have seen a lot of people saying that bringing back Kaiten would be difficult. However please take into consideration that there are only 2 issues that would happen when bringing it back.
1. The auto crit would do too much damage.
2. It'd consume 20 kenki whereas right now the calculation for DPS happens considering every kenki you use is into Shinten.

Therefore 2 easy fixes:
1. Kaiten makes your next iaijutsu a crit.
2. Shinten gets a potency buff so that it is stronger.

I perhaps do not know how easy it'd be to recalculate the Shinten damage buff since I am not a game developer, but the idea at least is somewhat easy.

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Originally Posted by darkdyllon

the problem would be that if Kaiten returns with 6.1 changes (auto crit etc) that Kaiten would either still make Iaitsu hit like a wet noodle or it would absolutely destroy balance because of it.
so if they revert straight back to 6.08 and work from there, make some changes internally, remove Kaiten there BUT start having alternatives to Kaiten (that's the main issue people are having, Kaiten brought gauge management, if just Shinten was removed the same issue would surface, Kaiten was removed and nothing was added in it's place)

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That's why my Initial Idea was to keep Kaiten but make it the next attack Direct Hit, so you guarantee Direct Crit Midare and Ogi.. I'd be more okay with that but in truth the Intolerance of the Community and unwillingness to listen outside of the Samurai playing folks is staggering, ppl immediatly get fed up when I only bring up that I want Kaiten back! It's like you have depression and everyone you wanna talk to about it acts like: "NO! DO NOT TALK TO ME"

They're Killing the Conversation and I think that's the main issue of the majority of this Community is that they living in that world where Final Fantasy XIV is the Best MMO and is always in the best state of the game because Yoshi-P are Perfect and the Devs can't do wrong, which is simply not true: They are Human, They make mistakes (a lot of mistakes!) but usually they listen to feedback.. we Kaiten Removal Opposers though got massively upset understandably so since they removed a core part of the Samurai's Kit hell! I saw a load of alternate change suggestion that even accounted the lie of Button Bloat in Samurai! I feel like I studied Samurai over the Kaiten Removal thoroughly and thus determine why Kaiten has to return (mainly because of the entire Kenki Integrity) while getting sidetracked pretty hard, I'll conclude with this:

listen... The Kaiten Removal is Bad
feel... The draining Shinten Spam
think... About The Importance of Kenki

#BringBackKaiten

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

That really is the major design problem behind most jobs now, everything follows a very strict rotation without deviation. Once an encounter is learned, even savage and ultimate, it no longer poses any difficulty. It is all patterns to be memorized and it is why FFXIV has a huge stagnation issue. None that has cleared older content wants to go back and do it again because it's just playing a pattern they have already memorized.

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Why is it that everyone who says this either never touches savage, or touches it and plays their class like absolute trash