Arcanist and Summoner: a possible solution

My biggest gripe with this new SMN is that if they wanted to change the concept of the job, then they should have done a complete rework on it. The rework was lazily done and incomplete, lacking depth and core mechanics that all other jobs have.
If they didn't have time or resources to pour on it now and make a good rework then leave it as it was for this expansion and introduce a good well-done new SMN in 7.0. All these new big shiny summons probably could have been implemented in place of Egi-assaults in old SMN easily and their skills just replacing Ruin III for their duration with an additional new skill (gemshine) until they figure out a good and satisfying rework in line with their new concept.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

That's a lot of words. Have a 1 paragraph TLDR version?

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Err, the TLDR could be: «Why are Arcanist and Summoner connected at all? It may have made sense in a day when Jobs had to spring up from Classes, but now that this is no longer the case, it really makes no sense for two things that are so different lore-wise and theme-wise to be together [...] The solution is easy: make ACN have its own development and make SMN be its own Job. By doing this, you not only get the chance to preserve and perfect an old playstyle that many used to love and are now missing dearly, but you also keep the new-SMN lovers happy with their new toy. Two birds with one stone — three birds actually, if you consider that you get a fourth caster for free, with minimal effort!»

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

"Totally disassociate Arcanist and Summoner" the OP says. And yet, pet attacks listed for Arcanist still include the word "Egi" ...

"Merge Energy Drain/Siphon or Fester/Painflare" into one button the OP suggests, ignoring the fact that one is a single attack and the other is an AoE.

The reason this can never become reality? SE would have to write 40 levels of new jobs quests specifically for Arcanist, and rewrite 30 levels of both Summoner and Scholar new job quests in order to make it work.

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Well, if you think about it, Egi Assault still had that very same name long before you unlocked an actual Egi-summon. No need to make such a fuss about mere names: what matters is the substance of the thing — and the substance of the thing is: "button that makes the Pet do an Action". The name can easily be adjusted.
Your comment about Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare shows you might have missed the way I have re-worded the upgraded Abilities to eliminate the problem. That might be on me though: my first post is seriously too long and it's easy for some things to go unnoticed. However, why must you assume I'm so dumb I cannot tell the difference between single target and AoE? I can — I did.
Same with the class/job quest issue: I've considered it in my previous post and noted it is not such an insurmountable obstacle, especially if the "easy way" I pointed out is followed.
Uh, if I may give a small suggestion for the future: no need to use such a condescending tone when talking to a stranger about a videogame in an online forum. This is a SMN thread: let's show we are well-mannered bookworm nerds.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I'm sorry OP, but you wasted your time here. SE is never going to do this. If they did separate SMN from ACN, they would simply make it ACN > SCH. Their entire excuse for the "improved" SMN was felt that game engine couldn't support SMN's job design. So for them to comeback and add a job that they can't support isn't going to happen.

As a disgusted EX-SMN who is still looking for a new job to play, I feel this redesign was hastily done without any input for the community beside people who just wanted aesthetics over substance. But the chose was made and the only thing to do is add input to help in future development changes. Or just quit, still can't decide my choice on the matter. Either way I've accepted the old SMN is dead... unless they add a HW legacy server.

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I mean, I had some fun writing at least so it's not completely wasted time xD Though having read some of your posts on this subject, I understand your disappointment and share it wholeheartedly. I'm a SCH main and healer player in general: I know everything about perfectly reasonable and easy-to-implement solutions getting completely ignored and I'm under no illusion about these suggestion ever having an impact. Still, I cannot bring myself to let this issue drop and be forgotten: I'm way too salty I wasn't able to enjoy old Summoner as much I could have. I can scarcely imagine the pain of old-time players.

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

My biggest gripe with this new SMN is that if they want to change the concept of the job, then they should have done a complete rework on it. The rework was lazily done and incomplete, lacking depth and core mechanics that all other jobs have.
If they didn't have time or resources to pour on it now and make a good rework then leave it as it was for this expansion and introduce a good well-done new SMN in 7.0. All this new big shiny summons probably could have been implemented in place of Egi-assaults in old SMN easily and their skills just replacing Ruin III for their duration with an additional new skill (gemshine) until they figure out a good and satisfying rework in line with their new concept.

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Rejoice, for the purpose of this thread — unlike most of the other SMN ones — is not (I repeat: it is NOT) to throw hate on Endwalker Summoner, nor to throw shade at the old one: it's to allow the people who enjoy one, the other or both to come together and find solutions. As I said, I don't really like new SMN myself (to put it mildly), but I really encourage those who do to share realistic options that could be implemented in place of the lazy leftovers of past iterations of the Job. I had every intention of editing my first post and integrating it (and making it longer lol) with such suggestions so it can feel complete for all parties.

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Originally Posted by 5trange

Your comment about Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare shows you might have missed the way I have re-worded the upgraded Abilities to eliminate the problem. That might be on me though: my first post is seriously too long and it's easy for some things to go unnoticed.

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You might want to go back and edit this detail out of your Arcanist description then:

"This has mostly to do with Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare. First of all, it makes no sense to occupy 4 key binds for something that could just as easily occupy half of that. Also, since in EW both Fester and Painflare have just 1s of recast time, there is literally no reason to have them be different buttons. So, through the leveling process, Energy Drain will upgrade to Energy Siphon and Fester will upgrade to Painflare."

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You might want to go back and edit this detail out of your Arcanist description then:

"This has mostly to do with Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare. First of all, it makes no sense to occupy 4 key binds for something that could just as easily occupy half of that. Also, since in EW both Fester and Painflare have just 1s of recast time, there is literally no reason to have them be different buttons. So, through the leveling process, Energy Drain will upgrade to Energy Siphon and Fester will upgrade to Painflare."

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I think OP meant for the abilities to become a single button each, as in, make the single target ones upgrade to an AoE falloff version.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I understand the skepticism, but the key difference there is, that was a rework for a role, but this is a single job.

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Machinist sends its regards.

How dare you give me hope for obsidian and moonstone carbuncles :<

I'm glad dots are gone. Please stay gone. I do not miss them at all. I like this version of summoner better than the previous one. I hope we get more primals in the future. Even ogcd ones. I hope square doesn't fold and just builds on this reworked version. Just my opinion. I'm so excited for the AST rework coming in 6.2 just to see the forums flooded with "Why did they do this to AST" "We didn't ask for this" lol. Gonna be great.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I'm glad dots are gone. Please stay gone. I do not miss them at all. I like this version of summoner better than the previous one. I hope we get more primals in the future. Even ogcd ones. I hope square doesn't fold and just builds on this reworked version. Just my opinion. I'm so excited for the AST rework coming in 6.2 just to see the forums flooded with "Why did they do this to AST" "We didn't ask for this" lol. Gonna be great.

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Honestly I’m more bored of dot-less classes, jobs with temporary/cooldown dots, or ones that just fit into their combo rotation. It’s boring design now because every job is headed that way… just kinda want variety. I hope you understand my point of view.

As for the AST comment… I don’t remember them saying they’d rework AST? They already did in 6.0 why would they do it in 6.2? Perhaps cite a source on that?

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I'm glad dots are gone. Please stay gone. I do not miss them at all. I like this version of summoner better than the previous one. I hope we get more primals in the future. Even ogcd ones. I hope square doesn't fold and just builds on this reworked version. Just my opinion. I'm so excited for the AST rework coming in 6.2 just to see the forums flooded with "Why did they do this to AST" "We didn't ask for this" lol. Gonna be great.

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Being excited for the potential misery of others getting something they loved taken away from them is totally normal and well adjusted behavior. Just my opinion.

I really don't get people. It's as if they see "Summoner" in the title and assume this is just another useless complaint thread about Endwalker SMN xD I've said it already and I'll say it again if I have to: we're NOT here to say "delete new Summoner and go back", nor "forget old Summoner and accept the new one". I know it sounds like a cheap political slogan, but I really wish to find a solution that makes most players happy. You don't like DoTs and love Endwalker Job design? Good for you — and I'm 100% serious, no sarcasm whatsoever. However my point — and the point of this thread — is: how can we make the rest of the people happy to play as well? The mental scheme should not be "give-and-take" but "give-and-give".

Also, as many other comments have pointed out in this thread and in the other ones, liking new SMN doesn't mean being blind to its very obvious imperfections. Keep in mind that likes and dislikes are ultimately a subjective thing and constitute no argument at all. In respecting everyone's tastes we should also recognize that different people have different preferences and this discussion is not directly about that — rather it's about finding the solution which is objectively better for the majority. And that solution is to keep, preserve and perfect both styles of play.