The Twelve, The Calendar, and The Dusty Tomes (I'm Sorry.)

Just repeat to yourself "It's just a game"

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that the eras do not fit in with the normal cycle, instead just having their own cycle of an elemental umbral era, followed by a corresponding astral era. The eras are named after a defining element during them, supposedly the core of the tragedy that brought the umbral era, as well as an influence in the astral era (as I understand it). It would be rather odd if the disasters all corresponded to the manmade calender. Rather, the disasters that usher in the coming umbral era are unknown to the citizens of Eorzea, and this makes them frightening. However, there's also hope in that the same element will usher in an astral era after. And just because disasters happen, followed by good times, does not mean that we need to have an era whose element is darkness before we have an era ruled by light.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

The eras are named after a defining element during them ... It would be rather odd if the disasters all corresponded to the manmade calender.

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That's a logical start, but we know the first was wind, the fifth was ice, the sixth was water, and I'm pretty sure the fourth being earth around the time Allagan was destroyed came up somewhere. That means we've still been going clockwise around the elemental wheel, and thus even if we break that first part of the pattern, it's still in conformity to the calendar; still the same type of odd, no?

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

It would be rather odd if the disasters all corresponded to the manmade calender.

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I think one premise that we need to accept (or at least accept the very real possibility of) is that the calendar/lore here is not "made-up". In other words, in RL, many (not taking sides here) will take the position that religion qua religion, is man-made. So any attempts to correlate religion and science will necessarily fail (or require some "creative" solutions like a "day" from Genesis being multiple millennium). In Eorzea, however, it seems we are led to believe that the religion/dieties are real and their control over Eorzea is real and persistent. So the calendar is not "man-made" in the normal sense. It is more akin to e=mc2. It is a scientific equation that derives directly from the way in which the dieties created/control Eorzea.

Man I love posts like these. Where did the last hour go?

Thumbs up to all who participated. Give us MOAR

Some of this is going from memory, so bear with me.

It is theology that governs history beyond human records and ability to measure it. As our ability to measure extends, this sway retracts, but never vanishes. Even now in our own world theology holds sway over the question "What was before the big bang?" Of course the problem with involving theologians in historic discussion is that they have this habit of objecting to any theory that does not sit with their doctrine, for how could such a thing exist? It can take quite a bit of pushing to make them budge. In our own world, such attitudes made it difficult to break concepts of the world being flat, at the centre of our solar system, made of only four elements and less than about 6000 years old. But we got there and our understanding of history widened. Now, back to Eorzea.

We know from various Newspaper articles that civilisation can only trace itself back so far. Research on the history of Eorzea's Astral and Umbral eras is conducted by both historians and theologians. There is almost no evidence of what existed prior to the Allagan Empire and what does exist is in the form of religious texts. It therefore falls to the theologians to offer meaning to existence by creating whatever story they find most probable. Thus, we have:

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Chapter 5 - Of Gods
The constancy and eternity of time derive from the pulse and breath of the Twelve. And by their divine will the brilliance of the Astral Eras which see man flourish and prosper, and the shadows of the Umbral Eras which see man falter and doubt, are visited upon him in equal, and neither the greatest good nor the greatest evil may escape their purview. Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars, six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order. The Sixth Umbral Era belonged to the waters, as heavy rains fell and the seas rose high, submerging and cleansing all in a great deluge. With time the waters receded, ushering in the present Sixth Astral Era, during which man has again rebuilt his halls and tilled his lands. Naught save the ken of the Twelve themselves knoweth when the Seventh Umbral Era shall come and end our days. The sole certainty what resides within man is the selfsame as it has ever been - ours is the power to make of our Era what we might.

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Note that most of the emphasis is on the 6th Astral and Umbral. This is what the historians have evidence on and is thus the part they are best positioned to flesh out with detail. Prior to that? Well we have information on the Allagan civilisation, lore that says the Mi'quote came during an ice age and the like, but things don't go much further back than that.

Oh hang on, did I just say our earliest historic records are ICE AGE?!?!? (I'll let you munch on that, Moose.)

Now what came before? Theologians start filling the gaps. We get into creation myths that simply give us the best story we can come with. They begin extrapolating what we currently have - a never-ending cycle of elements back to something they can define as a beginning. And whom of the twelve is associated with beginnings?

Llymlaen, the navigator. She directs where to go. She sets the course and begins journeys. "Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars." By placing her first and having the known floods (water) sixth, theologians also end up with the magical number of six that revolves through their mythology, making it just feel right.

And then mythology starts to stick. In spite of expanded knowledge of the world, in spite of any real evidence that this Astral era is even water in the first place (why did the flood waters recede?) and not wind again (for only the umbral eras seem to display a strong affinity to any element of destruction). Disaster begins to strike and, in spite of all logic, people begin to only cling tighter to their mythology and its interpretation on the words of a seer. I propose looking at this text again.

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Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six.
Only six eras? I propose that this actually means six elements.

Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.
I pose that this simply iterates the constant rotation between Astral and Umbral.

Ne’er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons,Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms.
Again, time must continue. Things remain in motion and do not simply end. The astral must end before the umbral can begin. And if we are not careful, both can actually harm us, not just the umbral, for change in the climate brings change to our lifestyles (perhaps the umbral era of water was marked as a time of destruction simply because the Allagan Empire could not adapt to it? In a mass extinction event, it is always the specialised creatures that perish first).

Will destruction rain down from the firmament? Or will it seep forth from the bowels of the nether?
Which will we allow to harm us next?

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I simply want to make the point that theology is causing a certain interpretation of these verses, which may not be quite correct, for we are limited in our true historic understanding.

And what came before the gods? What did they live through? Perhaps Llymlaen did direct the start of our dance, but that was not the beginning of time. Perhaps things did indeed begin with ice.

I'd like to get back into this wheel. It is, exactly that, a wheel, a circle, a cycle. As with the hours, the weeks and the years, it does not end and continues to turn. There is an assumption that when the 6th set of eras end, so will the world. I believe this assumption is entirely man made and, when Dalamud decends and destruction rains, the world will not end, but we will deem the land wiped clean by dark winds. And the cycle will continue.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Even now in our own world theology holds sway over the question "What was before the big bang?"

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Though separate from the rest of my response, this question always gets me thinking. I'm sad that I won't be alive to see whether or not I'm right, but I think that, much like stars are born, burn, die, explode, collapse, and begin anew - so do universes. I'd like to think our big bang was part of an infinite chain; that what we call "the universe" is actually billions of these events. The space occupied by galaxies from our big bang will expand outwards, cool, and die out - leaving behind the matter to create the next chain in the explosive reaction.

Hell, for all we know, this is all going on within the basic structure of something much, much, larger...

BUT BACK TO EORZEA!

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Oh hang on, did I just say our earliest historic records are ICE AGE?!?!? (I'll let you munch on that, Moose.) ... what came before?

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Ahaha; never correlated those before. Nice catch.

We do know that the Allagan Empire arose around the same time as the Worship of the Twelve, which was in the Third Astral Era (Fire), which makes a lot of sense - the light and purification of old into new. If Gahoo's notions stand, and I think they bear their weight nicely, we are to assume that it is in this time that The Twelve (or their paragons) delivered to us "their" calendar.

Like you said, we didn't have much to go on before this; but we do know that they had 4 previous eras, two umbral and two astral -- unless "Year Zero" means that we didn't have a first umbral era - or that the first umbral era encompasses all that came before The Woken Races (1st Astral Era).

So, the Third Astral Era sees the rise of the Twelve, and maybe the calendar, which gives structure to what came before even though we don't know it.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Llymlaen, the navigator. She directs where to go. She sets the course and begins journeys. "Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars." By placing her first and having the known floods (water) sixth, theologians also end up with the magical number of six that revolves through their mythology, making it just feel right.

...

And what came before the gods? What did they live through? Perhaps Llymlaen did direct the start of our dance, but that was not the beginning of time. Perhaps things did indeed begin with ice.

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That's a brilliant way to look at it! If things were to start with wind, that would surely be why! As far as connecting it to the creation myths, though, literally any element could be seen as the first. In the Dusty Tomes, it is lightning's "spark" that lights the "fire" that ashes matter into "earth" that harbors the cold that creates "ice" that melts into "water" which evaporates into "wind."

Here, we see wind go last - but if we wanted to we could still say that this is a metaphor for the divine spark into the big bang into the cooling of matter that creates atmosphere to harbor ice that melts into water to create life...

Not saying that's the order I believe it goes in - hell, I'm not sure if there IS an order I count as canon yet. The only things I'm saying so far are (A) we should be careful about attributing our own metaphors to these, because (as demonstrated above) we could do that to ANY order and (B) whatever the true order is, the Dusty Tomes are inconsistent and confusing and likely don't represent the true measurements of time; so I'd like to know what they are.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

I'd like to get back into this wheel. It is, exactly that, a wheel, a circle, a cycle. As with the hours, the weeks and the years, it does not end and continues to turn. There is an assumption that when the 6th set of eras end, so will the world. I believe this assumption is entirely man made and, when Dalamud decends and destruction rains, the world will not end, but we will deem the land wiped clean by dark winds. And the cycle will continue.

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That would have been my assumption, as well - but this business about possibly (though I know you don't buy into this possibility, it's still a possibility) of Astral and Umbral being tied into the rotation of the Ages in more ways than just the rotation of prosperity and hardship.

Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six.
This comes down to a matter of what "these" refers to. Like you said, it's possible that the Astral Eras don't really have elements at all - which means that we truly would have borne witness to six elemental eras. In that case, the Dusty Tomes should clarify that we've seen six CYCLES of eras, as it does in The Five Ages.

six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order.

But perhaps it does just mean elements, who am I to say? Finding the truth is the purpose of this thread! ^^

Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.
It's the sentence structure on this one that gets me. The others can be read one way or another depending on what a single pronoun refers to - but here the sentence structure is hard to mess with. Let's read the whole thing that those excerpts came from.

Urianger
All men seek truth, be they children of Eorzea and freedom, or slaves born into imperial bondage. Garlemald seeketh to gain from the coming cataclysm. Ever doth it pursue me to this end, covetous of the knowledge I possess. Yet I have hitherto 'scaped the grasping hands of darkness, as my presence here doth attest. Even so, in keeping my liberty, I have lost much...my journal not least of all. I know not where it hath come to rest, yet wheresoever it be, the Empire will be anon, and Eorzea can ill afford its truths to be seen by imperial eyes. If thou countest thyself a friend to righteousness, I beseech thee recover my journal, lest it be made to serve evil. I have little and less to offer by way of gratitude, yet what knowledge I possess, I should gladly share with thee. Till fate decree that we meet once more, may the Twelve watch over thee.

>> You go out and find a page from his journal >>

Twelve be praised, a page of my journal! Verily, the light of truth ever shineth upon they who would bask in its warmth. Very well. I shall honor my promise and share with thee that which I know. Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six. Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.

Ne'er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons, Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms. (Stray seeds quicken in ash’ss grey embrace, Valiant blades forge under the Twelve’s good grace.)

Will destruction rain down from the firmament? Or will it seep forth from the bowels of the nether? Whencesoever it cometh, man shall know such devastation as he hath never seen, nay not in his profoundest nightmare. Whether thou payest the prophecy heed is thy decision to make, and thine alone.

I can't find a way to read that in a way that doesn't say there are 2 cycles of eras still to come. Regardless if "these" refers to cycles, or elements to be represented in cycles, there's 2 left (4 eras) in his progression. I admit, it is still unclear what he means, but it seems to infer pretty clearly that light energy and dark energy will each get a cycle.

I find that bizarre in so many ways.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

perhaps the umbral era of water was marked as a time of destruction simply because the Allagan Empire could not adapt to it?

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I'm not positive, but I believe the Allagan Empire was destroyed during the fourth umbral era; which according to the clockwise rotation of the era (given credence by that we know it started with wind, passed through ice fifth and water sixth) was a time of Earth.

This thread is very interesting for what I'm trying to make a desktop app for. I'm mainly making a "Eorzea Clock" apps like there are already several of, but I have yet to find one that works on my Logitech G15 and G19 keyboard's display.

I currently have something like this (the year is fictional at the moment)
http://www.maeve.be/sites/default/fi...OMUS-PC001.png
(it show the same thing on the G19)

What I'm trying to figure out (as most people in this thread), what is really the order of things. I'd also like to know if there is any (in-game) way to know what the current "year" inside the current Era is (as to be able to associate a deity to it)

PS: Sorry for the necro-bump

Necro-bumps on this one welcome - though I'm getting nervous that either they don't want to tell me I'm wrong and hurt mah lalafeelings, they don't want to outright say that there's some inconsistencies and they're okay with that, or they've been sitting in a board room for six months with a table covered in papers filled with lore and math equations like, "AW, LAWD, HE'S RIGHT."



That app looks great! Someone over at ZAM made an app a loooong time ago that had a year calculation in it (though I'm not sure if it's any more canon than yours). The app had some bugs in it that made it not work entirely right, but a friend of mine worked out the kinks and it can still pull the 1.0-synced data.

I'll pull it up later and we can compare 1.0 years. To be safe, you should make a few different copies of your app... one that's counting years as you have it now, possible one compared to the ZAM one... Also, we've been told by SE over and over that the Seventh Umbral Era is STILL APPROACHING ... so, to be safe, I'd make a copy of your app that starts counting years EXACTLY at the time of impact on November 11th, as we'll be entering a new age and thus starting at Year 0 of the 7th Umbral Era.

And then a back-up copy in case they do something crazy like start the era on ARR server up.

Apologies as always for the double post

I've been working on a guide, based on the Dusty Tomes and speeches throughout the game, to help those in A Realm Reborn choose a nameday and patron that is representative of what they resonate with and relate to and think of as their place in the world.

This includes the calendar implied by the Dusty Tomes.

Will this format be changed at all in A Realm Reborn?

For instance, would Halone still be representative of the first month, which is associated with Ice, which shares an affinity with the first day of the week, thus making the 1st, 9th, 17th, and 25th of the First Astral Moon days strongly associated with her?

I made a lot of little mistakes the first time around when creating my affinities, and I don't want to do that again. It's time for me to put all the chips on Rhalgr ... lightning, 4th, 12, 20th, 28th of the Fouth Umbral Moon, yeah?)

If you find the free time, I wouldn't object to knowing how to pronounce their names, either. [/innocent whistling]

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and/or possibly reply!

Also, maybe the element wheels will be changed - anyone notice how the primals are laid out on the primal poster behind Yoshi-P and co. during the live interview?

Bahamut
^
Ifrit <-> Shiva
Garuda <-> Titan
Leviathan <-> Ramuh
v
Odin

It could just be coincidence, but seeing the opposites now in place...maybe an introduction of polar elements, rather than wheels? And back to the old FF tradition where Fire was paired with Ice, Water with Lightning?