Unpopular Opinion: Your failure to understand Energy Drain's Usage

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Originally Posted by _forgotten

Friends, healers near and far, it is time we have a heart to heart about Energy Drain. For I have seen far too many calls for it's removal, both here and in The Balance.

TL;DR: If you can't play Scholar because you smash Energy Drain too much, Play Sadge. Aetherflow heals are powerful and not a DPS loss when used properly.

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Losing potential damage when doing an action is literally what a dps loss is, no matter how you twist it, Aetherflow heals (without recitation) are just a dps loss that may be worth taking to avoid bigger dps losses (dead party members)

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So when we consider healers, it makes sense to me that some healers are more difficult to pilot than others.
For both regen and shielding healers, you have a "simple" and a "complex" class

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This is bullshit, all healers are simply different flavours of braindead (with maybe the exception of optimal card ussage of Ast) and Sch is no exception, if you think ED is engaging complexity I suggest you to check other jobs, your mind may be blown I warn you

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they have more to consider.

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At least for Sch/Sge comparision, no they don't. They're literally 2/3rds of the same job just one that can heal well without tools that fight against each other and the other have to dump healing on the cohealer or bite the bullet and lose damage in a "wonderful" design centered about punishment, not reward.

And before someone says "bUt yoU LoSe DPS wiTh AeThERFLOW sO YoU HavE tO aVoId iT" first the priority of fairy/non AE>AE>GCD heals is something any half decent sch does by nature and its ALL the depth the job has nowadays, we dont even consider how to properly weave the heals anymore for fucks sake, secondly if avoiding your kit is engaging complexity for you, Im sorry.

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Healer DPS on "complex" jobs requires a deeper understanding of in game mechanics, how classes operate, and how mechanics need to be resolved(including healing output).

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LOL no, thats something every healer wanting to optimize has to do, no matter if its "complex" or "basic" and thats not even deep.

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There exists a subset of players that desire a "complex" gameplay loop that isnt just "turn my brain off and press my buttons."

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Agreed, sadly there is no healer that fits that niche

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Energy Draining 3x every aetherflow CD is a DPS loss. Why: Because if it saves you, or your cohealer, a GCD heal, it is a DPS gain. 100 potency on ED will never out DPS a GCD DPS spell, therefore aetherflow heals are almost always better than a GCD heal option(*eyes lillies*).

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Thanks for telling us what basic optimization is, now if only there was a design that not only encouraged that but also didn't punish the player who is actually playing for the team...oh WAIT there is one is called Addersgall and the free oGCDs

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Spend the time to learn complex jobs before complaining about their complexities.

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Sch is not complex if you want complexity just check Blm for example, any line optimization have more thought behind it than anything Sch does in 90% of the game content

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Simplification is what took healers from 5 DoT's to manage to 1. Please, we really dont need more oversimplification.

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Do you realize that most of the complains here about ED are calling for a rework of the mechanic to be changed for other kind of reward? We do not call for oversimplification but to remove a system that do not fit the current healing landscape where there are 2 healers who can carry the healing and other 2 who rely on leeching their teammates due to old systems that did not evolve properly.

Honestly this post just makes me think that you're stroking your ego thinking Sch is some kind of big brain class when its in its dumbest state ever. There are no "complex" healers sadly, just healers that can heal well and healers that are punished for doing it.

If ED is meant to work as an AF dump why the hell does it have damage potency. They could have kept Energy Drain's MP recovery effect and minimal HP recovery (for flavour) and remove the damage it dealt alltogether and it pretty much would solve all of the conflicting priorities and issues risen from the Aetherflow system being a DPS loss.

Have remaining AF stacks as AF comes off cooldown? Cool you get some extra MP back. That's it.

As long as ED exists as a DPS gain, we will keep having this problem.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

They push it because SCH is a jank class with outdated mechanics that don't synergize with itself. Dissipation has needed a rework since its inception and is little more than a roundabout DPS CD at this point, while the heal buff it provides affect all of 3 skills, one of which is pointless. Energy Drain is little more than padding for SCHs DPS numbers. Without it, SCH falls behind in terms of their DPS so each time a SCH has to heal with Aetherflow, their numbers go down and no, using a heal to save a DPS is not a DPS gain. It means that something is wrong. Are they too far for AoE heals/buffs? Did they stand in stupid? Is their gear on par with everyone else's and/or is it repaired? Did their food buff wear off? Regardless, you now have to take the L and heal them.

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I agree on dissipation, but I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding in the healer role here. Players are people. People make mistakes. Healers need to adjust to situations to offset mistakes. Would it be nice if everyone played perfectly? Absolutely. Do I expect that from my HC static during barse nights, 100% yes. Do I expect that from my former midcore group, not really, because mistakes happen. Do I expect that in a PF/Pug environment? 100% No and to expect otherwise shows a distinct misunderstanding of the healer role in any MMORPG, not just 14.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

This is a strawman argument. I haven't said it doesn't make sense, I said it suffers from conflicting Priorities.
Dissipation is supposed to be a Emergency button for heals from both GCD & AF, but instead it's a DPS button that gives you 1 Broil every 180s. And because the fairy is gone you're not even gaining Fey Gauge.
Energy Drain is supposed to be a button for AF stack dumping (that'S literally the only reason Players wanted it back, because pressing AF while still having stacks felt bad), but instead it's a DPS button that actively punishes you healing with your AF heals. This is a problem that was fixed before and only cropped up again because Square couldn't pay attention to their own fixed from a few patches ago.
Seraph is supposed to be a supercharged fairy but it's just a stepping stone for Consolation and locks you out of using Fey Union for spaghetti reasons.

Also this might be a crazy concept but you can ask for the removal of ED without asking for homogenization. If it were to me I'd nuke the AF system entirely and put more Focus on the Fey Gauge.

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No strawman, simply a disagreement on verbage. We agree about "conflicting priorities" in scholars kit. Dissipation made a lot more sense when we had the aetherflow CD trait in SB. Aetherflow was a 45s CD normally and a 30s CD with dissipation's extra AF. Removing the trait 100% put dissipation in a bad spot. Locking us out of our kit is simply a poor design choice, and remember the 6.0 job reveal Live Letter, ScHoLaR iS uNcHaNgEaBlE. Clearly there are improvements to be made that they weren't willing to look at for 6.0.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Scholar planning ahead which heals to use isn't a gameplay aspect unique to Scholar and arguably Astrologian actually has a better healing kit designed around "predicting the future" and "preparing heals ahead of time", i.e. Earthly Star, Horoscope, Exaltation & Macrocosmos.
Just because the majority of playerbase doesn't minmax isn't an excuse for why aspects of a class should be left broken like that. Do you want Scholar to end up like White Mage? because that's how you ensure Scholar ends up like White Mage.

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You failed to comment on the crux of my second point. Aetherflow on anything other than ED is a DPS Loss is a mindset for clean barse groups, not your average pug/PF group. Thoughts?

We agree on so much and disagree on so much. Give me back my 5 dots and you can take my ED. Rework or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by _forgotten

You failed to comment on the crux of my second point. Aetherflow on anything other than ED is a DPS Loss is a mindset for clean barse groups, not your average pug/PF group. Thoughts?

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I did answer it.

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Just because the majority of playerbase doesn't minmax isn't an excuse for why aspects of a class should be left broken like that. Do you want Scholar to end up like White Mage? because that's how you ensure Scholar ends up like White Mage.

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I don't even parse because im not that desperate to know how i perform. And i never set foot in a Savage raid I don't need it to know that SCH and WHM feel bad to heal with compared to their counterpart jobs. Except Scholars for some reason defend it as good game design even tho WHM with the exact same issue despise it.

Triple legend means quite literally nothing other than you were willing to throw yourself at fights for hours.

The issue with your logic is that energy drain IS a dps loss regardless. You save a gcd heal for your partner by losing dps for yourself. It's net positive, but it feels like crap.

They need to make aetherflow stacks separate from energy drain stacks. You still get 3 ED stacks on aetherflow cast and dissipation. Sch still has much more fun optimization than sage through raid buff bursts and holding stacks for 2 minute windows

Non Scholar player here, but to play devil's advocate I don't even think Energy Drain's DPS loss component is necessarily as big of a problem. I know, I know, DPS losses feel bad. I hate it on WHM too. But I also think a huge unspoken source of consternation with these lossy mechanics is that we also have two other healers in the role who can cackle at the concept of losing anything for their free healing, and THAT balancing difference makes the DPS loss feel even more stark. A loss in a vacuum feels bad. A loss when you can see other healers doing the same thing plus a lot more for zero cost is unacceptable.

One problem with trying to tie ED down as being "skill" or "decision making", is the fact that healing required is very dependent on other sources than the player, such as your co-heal, content, group mitigation and how many mistakes are made.
This means you might not be an amazing SCH, but if your co-heal was a Sylphie or your group was good you get to fire out ED's like candy and do good dps. Meanwhile a great SCH might have a somewhat messy run and bad co-heal and have no choice but to burn most of their Aether on healing, thus doing lower dps. A Sage in either scenario would do dps based on their own ability as a player, because outside sources aren't turning their Addersgall into a loss or gain.

Decision making abilities should be within the players control where possible. Heal tax is only a decision at a basic level, like "I shouldn't waste Aether heals or lilies when no one's in danger" but once you become semi-competent at healing, the amount of healing required becomes more and more dependent on the group and the tax become less of a decision and more a punishment.

Basically ED is a reward for inexperienced players for not wasting heals, but a punishment for good players. I'd much rather SCH had some of their DoT's back or other dps abilities that actually relied on player skill, rather than sometimes being free damage for something you don't control at all.

The Aetherflow system has aged rather badly IMO.

Because you need an Aetherflow dump to ready up the next refresh, or you're losing the MP refresh.

I'm tired of healing being attached to damage because in the end, most of the stacks will be used on ED. That's how SCH wants to play at an optimal level and it's become problematic.

You don't really want to touch your Aetherflow heals unless you have to when all your other choices are used up. At this point, Fae Gauge should be the attached to the oGCDs and not Aetherflow.

Either Aetherflow goes or they need to make it just for damage or buffs. You never want to use a heal if you can squeeze out more damage in an optimized environment.

Energy Drain exists because it cannot be without the constraints of Aetherflow. Dissipation suffers from this as well because it's used for DPS purposes rather than healing because it locks out half your kit.

The sheer fact that SGE has a lily/Aetherflow hybrid gauge and doesn't have an Energy Drain equivalent. It's clear that the devs don't like ED and aren't going to entertain the idea of it on SGE.

Tbh, SCH needs a rework as badly as WHM and I mean a deep rework–not a retooling or some things moved around. Like I mean they should abolish their kits and start from square one.