Caster balance - Progression jobs vs speed

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?

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This.

Even without raises, RDM and SMN are jobs with raid buffs, so they get balanced accordingly. And anyone can see SMN and RDM are not suffering for representation in any content in this game, and are getting clears.

So this really comes down to "I just want to speedrun in parties with SMN/RDM" and that's not a balance conversation.

I still think the caster rezz needs to be looked at since it is a problem when comes to balancing casters(even if few think otherwise). I've seen people complain about the rezz mage memes rdm had in the past and I see blm asking for rez or utility of any kind so that has more purpose and is used more in prog. I know some of yall think it's not a big deal but it always has been a problem. I saw someone bring up how smn was a powerful dps with rez in the past. That was mostly because the devs tended to over buff smn in the .1 patches and always had to nerf it afterward because it usually did close to or more dps than blm. When that was happening smn was being picked more because you got both a high dps job and a rez for prog. It did leave both blms and rdm at the door at parties. At the impression, I got from people comments about the past. I usually never paid attention to pick rates since I am in a mid core/casual static who let me play whatever job I want. But I believe those peaple comments and I do believe the rez is an issue in the casters' balancing.

Personally, I like to see one of two things happen to caster rez:
One: They just delete altogether and let healers be the ones to deal with picking the dead off the floor. Then buff both rdm and smn accordingly based on the utility they bring and bring all three caster closer together like the melee and phy range roles.
Two: They make the rez a role action that has a long CD and is an instant cast oGCD. That why blm at least has some place in prog also other than just having "high dam".

Also, let's not forget we were close to having just one caster rez this expac. SMN's rez was on the chopping block and the devs seemed pretty ready to pull that trigger. I personally believe smn rez isn't going to be around after EW since with its rework swiftcast is now being used more in its rotation than ever.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?

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But the thread isn't about RDM or SMN doing less damage than BLM, it's BLMs being asked to change to RDM or SMN because of raise.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

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Did the 3, progged twice every ultimates with different groups.
On average, it takes a month with a 3-4 raid night, can be faster yes.

UCOB, you can cheese, raise through mechanics for sure, we all know the legendaries 20 KOs run, but that's because it's poorly tuned nowadays, you can start the add phase with damage down on everyone and still pass it with no troubles.
On other mechanics, a KO is most often a wipe since you won't get that person for mechanics.
TEA P2, you can't have a single KO for example.

I've been raiding since end of HW and I stand by my point:
Resses are virtually useless, they are additional breathing room like Dark Mind. Except one is actually a good breathing room, the other is almost placebo.

I'd say combat res is a lot stronger in theory than in practice. It's almost like they design mechanics around undermining it as much as possible. Even mechanics that don't necessarily involve the whole party but have an RNG element will occasionally just kill everyone if one person is dead because of debuff stacking.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

This.

Even without raises, RDM and SMN are jobs with raid buffs, so they get balanced accordingly. And anyone can see SMN and RDM are not suffering for representation in any content in this game, and are getting clears.

So this really comes down to "I just want to speedrun in parties with SMN/RDM" and that's not a balance conversation.

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I think you’re missing the point. My point is that all other job roles are competitive within their role. They don’t have sub roles the way caster does.

Red mage and summoner do not have raid buffs that make up the difference in DPS to black mage. That’s what this thread is about.

The other roles are balanced in this way. Machinist is high DPS low utility. Dancer is low DPS high DPS utility. Their personal damage is low because they raise the damage of their party members.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I think you’re missing the point. My point is that all other job roles are competitive within their role. They don’t have sub roles the way caster does.

Red mage and summoner do not have raid buffs that make up the difference in DPS to black mage. That’s what this thread is about.

The other roles are balanced in this way. Machinist is high DPS low utility. Dancer is low DPS high DPS utility. Their personal damage is low because they raise the damage of their party members.

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I think the point you're missing is that Caster DPS as a whole are also the most different jobs from one another within their role. That's why they're balanced differently to begin with. Ranged and Melee DPS cluster together on their respective halves because they have a similar proportion of their respective GCDs. Melee are mostly melee instant-casts. Ranged are mostly Ranged instant-casts. Casters vary significantly in their proportion of instant cast and hardcast GCDs, and one of them even has melee GCDs to consider on top of that. Hence, Ranged are weaker as whole. Melee are on top, and the caster DPS vary a bit. This also tracks onto their respective utility budgets too. Raise > Healing > Mitigation > Nothing. Taken together, it makes sense they're different. Because they have reason to be different.

My only reason for not wanting to squish the proportions -too much- is I want ranged DPS to get equivalent value. That requires their role-specific utility, including mobility, to matter more. Encounter Design needs to address the gap just as much if not more than the numbers alone. This used to be partially alleviated by Ballad (Till Stormblood made Summoner an effective half-Bard). It isn't anymore, so in its place we need some actual mechanics Ranged DPS can bait and control on top of the typical nonsense. Fights getting faster are in some sense an attempt to address this, though I don't like them as a solution either. I'd rather more interesting demands from an encounter than less and less room to react to the dance before wiping the raid, personally.

I don't think Raise is an issue. Can it be updated? Absolutely.

SMN requires swiftcast in their DPS rotation. RDM also but RDM can quickcast every GCD. First and foremost, having to raise is a damage lost for the SMN/RDM. SMN because you lose noticeable DPS to swiftcast it or having to long cast it. RDM loses DPS because it unbalances their black and white mana. Raise is not free for them.

Should BLM deal more DPS? Yeah, they are pure firepower. I don't think it should to a point of 7% to 8% ahead of SMN and RDM.

The other problem is SMN is literally weaker in every aspect of RDM right now.

Weaker raid buff (Embolden>Searing Light)
Superior raise option (can literally raise 4 people in about 10 seconds)
Better fight synergy where they can hold on things as long they don't drift any oGCDs.
Magick Barrier comes from demand versus time gated Everlasting Flight + Rekindle (This WILL matter in fresh Ultimates)

The only thing you can give SMN over RDM is "mobility". All casters got mobility improvements this expansion. SE quite made it too braindead and easy for SMN. The issue is pretty simple. If SMN doesn't have reliable raise, then you may as well just bring a caster that provides better damage.

Imho, Raise should stay but it should be revamped. Give it as an instant cast with a long CD so the whole argument that RDM has better prog support is voided.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I don't think Raise is an issue. Can it be updated? Absolutely.

SMN requires swiftcast in their DPS rotation. RDM also but RDM can quickcast every GCD. First and foremost, having to raise is a damage lost for the SMN/RDM. SMN because you lose noticeable DPS to swiftcast it or having to long cast it. RDM loses DPS because it unbalances their black and white mana. Raise is not free for them.

Should BLM deal more DPS? Yeah, they are pure firepower. I don't think it should to a point of 7% to 8% ahead of SMN and RDM.

The other problem is SMN is literally weaker in every aspect of RDM right now.

Weaker raid buff (Embolden>Searing Light)
Superior raise option (can literally raise 4 people in about 10 seconds)
Better fight synergy where they can hold on things as long they don't drift any oGCDs.
Magick Barrier comes from demand versus time gated Everlasting Flight + Rekindle (This WILL matter in fresh Ultimates)

The only thing you can give SMN over RDM is "mobility". All casters got mobility improvements this expansion. SE quite made it too braindead and easy for SMN. The issue is pretty simple. If SMN doesn't have reliable raise, then you may as well just bring a caster that provides better damage.

Imho, Raise should stay but it should be revamped. Give it as an instant cast with a long CD so the whole argument that RDM has better prog support is voided.

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I agree with most of what you’ve said. I think the raise tax needs to be looked at, if we are to keep it. It wouldn’t surprise me if they decide to remove it from SMN. Yoshi said it was on the chopping block coming into 6.0.

SMN is the most taxed job in the game. Raise tax, mobility tax, utility tax. Let’s remove one of them. SMN could be 3-4% below BLM and make up that damage with searing light.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I agree with most of what you’ve said. I think the raise tax needs to be looked at, if we are to keep it. It wouldn’t surprise me if they decide to remove it from SMN. Yoshi said it was on the chopping block coming into 6.0.

SMN is the most taxed job in the game. Raise tax, mobility tax, utility tax. Let’s remove one of them. SMN could be 3-4% below BLM and make up that damage with searing light.

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Honestly it's an easy fix. Just make raise a role action ability with 120s cooldown.