What is worth going to war for?

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Ah... so we are on the "call the other person facist" argument... classy...

No, I am not defending Garlean's actions at all. But I think its important to understand why people make choices like that and the story very skilfully shows how persecution at the hands of others for differences can lead to a thirst for revenge. Its very relevant to our modern world today.

I mean, all the states of this game are guilty of some kind of barbarism. I think that is why its so poignant. All of them are guilty.

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Well, dude. The Garleans ARE a fascist regime and you said you support them, so what do you expect? "Strong central governments" tend to be the backbone of fascism and suppress their people through fear and violence, and get rid of anyone who is "different". It's always been like that.

Yeah, the City-States weren't much better with their treatment of the beast tribes and they've been called out on it. That's why they actually changed in the end.

First off, its a fictional game... and second, yes because I believe the city states are no better. If they hadn't treated the Garleans terribly in the first place, then they wouldn't have come back and invaded them. You can't treat somebody terribly and then wonder why they slapped you. Yes, the Garleans are terrible people and have done terrible things in the story but so have every other city state in the game. They are all as bad as each other.

If you want to know the truth, I agree with Meteion...

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

As a opposed to what, rampant piracy, a pacifist tree hugging society and a desert city that is basically owned by big business.

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Do better than just reiterating the points Varis makes when going for hollow, hypocritical point-scoring. Even Varis isn't good at that, and that's clear from what he swings at Gridania. He doesn't go for any of the actual problems with Gridania, he just goes for the thing that'll make Kan-e-Senna mad and then claims that's victory.

And remember that Varis is also a master race ideologist. He's just got a weird angle that someone else is the master race rather than his people.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They're quite clearly heavily based off of the Romans and Russians, though. With a fantasy technology twist thrown in for good measure.

I think it's rather disingenuous to try and associate them with such a movement only to accuse people of supporting it in turn - especially when we're dealing with a fictional organisation in a make believe setting.

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Thank, I was actually getting rather upset that I was being accused of being a facist just because I pointed out that the guys we work with, are just as bad.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Thank, I was actually getting rather upset that I was being accused of being a facist just because I pointed out that the guys we work with, are just as bad.

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People don’t like it when you point out flaws in the protagonists. They’re all perfect sparkly do-gooders obviously /s

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Thank, I was actually getting rather upset that I was being accused of being a facist just because I pointed out that the guys we work with, are just as bad.

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Unfortunately it isn't an unusual occurrence around these parts. It's been happening for years. I don't give any weight to such arguments and personal attacks, though.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

People don’t like it when you point out flaws in the protagonists. They’re all perfect sparkly do-gooders obviously /s

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I've made my life doing that... its why I have few friends. I'm autistic and I can sometimes see things that others don't agree to. They are entitled to do, but what they are not entitled to do is say that I am one of the worst types of people on the planet just for pointing out that the mega-bad evil villain got treated terribly and never reconciled it, leading them into a inferiority complex and needing to prove themselves through conquest.

As somebody who is also Gay, I can understand Garlean's perspective as it is very easy to turn to hate and fear to the people that have wronged you. I don't agree with their position, but I do understand it having felt some of that anger myself.

Y'know I'm starting to see the merits of that other thread about arguments and discussion being made in bad faith. The OP clearly isn't interested in having their mind changed, and the rest of the thread somehow attracted a Garlean apologist vomiting the usual whataboutism/false equivalence garbage. I'll just say this:

If you support a strong, centralized government, Garlemald is not for you. It was never made to be orderly or peaceful by Emet-Selch. Deliberately designed to be dysfunctional, wasteful, and inefficient and breed hatred and resentment amongst its citizenry. Designed to collapse and spread maximum chaos and violence the second its head of state died.

The Empire's dead, and the Garlean people, and the world, is better off without it. Gaius himself acknowledges as much, and he's usually the one apologists turn to when they try to use the "few bad apples" fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They're quite clearly heavily based off of the Romans and Russians, though. With a fantasy technology twist thrown in for good measure.

I think it's rather disingenuous to try and associate them with such a movement only to accuse people of supporting it in turn - especially when we're dealing with a fictional organisation in a make believe setting.

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Actually, while you're right that the Garleans are patterned very organizationally (obviously so) on the Roman Empire, and aesthetically on Russia both before and after the revolution (Garlemald itself is very clearly Cold War-y, Emet-Selch's Solus garb is very clearly based more on Russian nobility), to say there is no Nazi influence there is ignorance and folly. The red and black comes from them, the heavily regimented movements and simultaneous saluting comes right from Nazi war propaganda, the overall angle of 'society pushed to the brink and then formed into an imperialist state by a charismatic leader' is very much Germany in the period after WWI.

Varis himself brings it into start contrast; while Gaius is a very Roman imperialist, Varis is very clearly inspired by Nazi ideology and attitudes. There's a reason that the Calamity-causing superweapon made under his rule is a gas weapon.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They're quite clearly heavily based off of the Romans and Russians, though. With a fantasy technology twist thrown in for good measure.

I think it's rather disingenuous to try and associate them with such a movement only to accuse people of supporting it in turn - especially when we're dealing with a fictional organisation in a make believe setting.

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It may be a fictional organization, but people do tend to rely on their own beliefs when they're playing a game. If you support a totalitarian racist regime that has slaughtered and enslaved countless people, it's usually coming from somewhere.

Just because the Garleans had a bad lot doesn't give them the right to commit mass genocide. For all the bad things the Eorzeans did to the beast tribes, do you honestly think the Garleans would have treated them any better? More than likely they would have wiped them out for being different and not submitting. The Germans were is bad shape after WW1, for example- it didn't give Hitler the right to murder millions of Jews and start a world war that took tens of millions more lives. Yet the Garleans get a pass because they were treated poorly ages ago?