Did we reverse Emet's tempering at the end?

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Originally Posted by Geriel

Doesn't Emet basically say himself that his tempering is cured?

"Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own"

To me, that says the charms (or spell, or geas) that were on him are overthrown, ie. gone. And his remaining power is his to do with as he sees fit. He is no longer compelled to do the will of Zodiark.

I could be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

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I... Jeez, I don't know how to take that. Because OUT OF UNIVERSE, it's a direct reference to Prospero's final monologue in The Tempest. Especially with the other references to the work in 5.0 (The Tempest itself, the Caliban Gorge, The Trinculo Shelf, and I think Prospero himself is referenced). The charms mentioned in the monologue are Prospero's charms over the island and those that were thrown there by his own design.

Full monologe on the spoiler box

Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own,
Which is most faint: now, 'tis true,
I must be here confined by you,
Or sent to Naples. Let me not,
Since I have my dukedom got
And pardon'd the deceiver, dwell
In this bare island by your spell;
But release me from my bands
With the help of your good hands:
Gentle breath of yours my sails
Must fill, or else my project fails,
Which was to please. Now I want
Spirits to enforce, art to enchant,
And my ending is despair,
Unless I be relieved by prayer,
Which pierces so that it assaults
Mercy itself and frees all faults.
As you from crimes would pardon'd be,
Let your indulgence set me free.

IN-UNIVERSE... I don't know... (though, honestly, props to whoever wrote the poem in Ere Our Curtain Falls while maintaining the cadence and changing the rhyme-ok, no one cares). It COULD certainly mean Hades is left without any of his magicks, or it could mean he's no longer charmed (so tempered). I am of the belief that Hades is no longer tempered while in the Lifestream (hence, why he saves us from Elidibus' confinement), and the poem itself is refering to US the WoL as the ones who will win the future.

Something that I still don't quite get about the Ascians in general is how they're able to cheat death to varying degrees by persisting without a physical form.

We know the Echo is involved to a degree, but there's no indication the Ancients as a whole possessed the same ability despite being several magnitudes more powerful, yet even some of the weaker Ascians are able to body hop freely if given the chance.

Is it perhaps something Zodiark did in a bid to ensure his followers would be able to watch over the star for time eternal? This line from one of the Convocation's crystals recorded immediately after Zodiark's summoning makes me wonder, anyhow: "I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right."

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

We know the Echo is involved to a degree, but there's no indication the Ancients as a whole possessed the same ability despite being several magnitudes more powerful, yet even some of the weaker Ascians are able to body hop freely if given the chance.

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One thing to consider: What reason would the original Ancients have to do so? They lived in a peaceful society, without any monsters murdering them right and left until the very end. They had no occasion to even try doing such a thing. Additionally (and this is speculation), it may be more difficult or impossible to possess the bodies of unsundered beings, so the bodiless spirits would have no place to go.

I suspect that shedding the physical form was something that was developed at the last minute, out of desperation - likely just before or during the moment Hydaelyn sundered the world, and in a desperate gambit to avoid being sundered themselves. Only Lahabrea and Emet-Selch were able to do so (and Elidibus, maybe? He's an odd case, being basically a Primal himself). They then taught the skill to Ascians that they raised later.

Just speculation, but I think it makes sense.

To answer OP: Yes, we untempered Hades, because we killed him by shattering his soul. After that there is no way for it to resist the Lifestream, and so barring the unexpected, he should eventually be reborn as someone else(or possibly alternatively, his aether will go on to birth new souls for the planet and he is completely dead).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Something that I still don't quite get about the Ascians in general is how they're able to cheat death to varying degrees by persisting without a physical form.

We know the Echo is involved to a degree, but there's no indication the Ancients as a whole possessed the same ability despite being several magnitudes more powerful, yet even some of the weaker Ascians are able to body hop freely if given the chance.

Is it perhaps something Zodiark did in a bid to ensure his followers would be able to watch over the star for time eternal? This line from one of the Convocation's crystals recorded immediately after Zodiark's summoning makes me wonder, anyhow: "I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right."

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It's a natural power of the Echo, which we've learned is tied to all Amaurotine souls. The difficulty of doing it depends on the soul of the person you are trying to overtake. If their soul is at parity with yours, then it's a struggle, and you may fail. If their soul is weaker, then they are completely overwhelmed.

I suppose there may simply be a difference between having the Echo and "mastering" it as the sahagin elder and Zenos claimed to have done; which may have extended even to the Ancients despite seemingly being possessed of unfathomably greater power then any sundered individual.

The Ancients also didn't seem terribly fearful of death given their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the greater good as seen with both Quetzlcotl's summoner and Zodiark...though again, we don't know exactly how factual Emet Selch's likely biased interpretation of Amaurot and its people was.

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Originally Posted by Geriel

Doesn't Emet basically say himself that his tempering is cured?

"Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own"

To me, that says the charms (or spell, or geas) that were on him are overthrown, ie. gone. And his remaining power is his to do with as he sees fit. He is no longer compelled to do the will of Zodiark.

I could be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

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Great point. I think we definitely saved him in a way.

He also comes back in 5.3 and saves us from the rift after Elidibus put us there, which I don't think he would have been able to act against Elidibus even 'for his own good' if he was still tempered. So by that point I would say he was definitely untempered, and I think he was likely untempered after the fight in 5.0.