A weary player sees hope in the new update

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Originally Posted by Gramul

So is every other MMO on the market.
You know who's really getting ignored? You know who's an untapped source of interest? Core players.
Let's get things to aspire for. Things that not everyone can get so easily.

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Nobody is getting ignored, Yoshida also said that they are adding hard mode content in 2.0 for core players, come on Gramul lets not be selective, I know you this stuff as well as I do.

Perhaps some are getting ignored at the moment but they are working with a dev team that is split in half right now, there is only so much they can do.

I'm sorry but if you didn't get to the cap in WOW, then you haven't experienced even a quarter of what the game has to offer.

I see the time does not equal skill argument a lot regarding this issue. Unfortunately though time actually does equal skill. This refers to anything we do in life. For example, if I play soccer for 20 years and you play for 2 I will be much better than you regardless of athletic potential. If you practice playing the drums 50 hours per week and I practice 10 you will be much better than me. It's just how life is. This is why we only choose to do the things we like to do. The hours required to get good at the things we do are always massive. Rome was not built in one day. That being said, maybe the problem isn't time. Maybe it's the enjoyment we get out of the time we spend. If the "grind" in whatever aspect of the game were more enjoyable maybe we wouldn't be so concerned. I practice playing soccer many hours per week, but I love to do it so it doesn't seem like work to me. Personally I would rather take the time to get better and get enjoyment out of the things that I love to do rather than master something in minimal time and never do it again. We are talking longevity not fleeting satisfaction. Just my 2 cents.

It's great that the OP gets such a kick out of the crafting in this case. It's not for everybody, but there should be more of this kind of content simply because the OP enjoys it. Next time it should be carefully balanced too, to make sure the kind of investment in the items are worth the same amount of time investment of the players buying them.

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Originally Posted by SevenNajelith

I see the time does not equal skill argument a lot regarding this issue. Unfortunately though time actually does equal skill. This refers to anything we do in life. For example, if I play soccer for 20 years and you play for 2 I will be much better than you regardless of athletic potential. If you practice playing the drums 50 hours per week and I practice 10 you will be much better than me. It's just how life is. This is why we only choose to do the things we like to do. The hours required to get good at the things we do are always massive. Rome was not built in one day. That being said, maybe the problem isn't time. Maybe it's the enjoyment we get out of the time we spend. If the "grind" in whatever aspect of the game were more enjoyable maybe we wouldn't be so concerned. I practice playing soccer many hours per week, but I love to do it so it doesn't seem like work to me. Personally I would rather take the time to get better and get enjoyment out of the things that I love to do rather than master something in minimal time and never do it again. We are talking longevity not fleeting satisfaction. Just my 2 cents.

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I see the relationship you're trying to create between real-life skill sets and in game skill sets, but it really isn't there.
In game you have a cap on how good your character can be at crafting. Maximum level with the best available crafting gear.

Real-life skill sets are different. As you said yourself, someone who plays soccer for 20 years is better than someone who plays for 2, and someone who plays for 25 will likely be better than someone who plays for 20. There is always room for improvement. (Until your body starts falling apart from years of physical abuse, but that's not really important to the point)

The point is, in this game the cap on skill in an area like crafting is clearly defined and quickly (relatively) reached.

I suppose, that being said, that there is no other way for a crafter to define himself / herself among the player-base other than through the implementation of items such as the ones the OP crafted.

Is it considered being skillful to set down and craft for hours? Not by my definition.
I do consider it to require a high level of dedication though. And if that's what gives you gratification, then by all means do it. Being dedicated to something, in many cases, is more deserving of respect than being skillful anyway.

Vinta Calvert: Saga, why don't you quit if all you do is complain?
Saga Xxxx: Vinta
Saga Xxxx: I don't play a game because I like it
Saga Xxxx: I play to be the best

One person says "man, that was pretty hard/tricky/challenging to get through, but damn was it satisfying!"

Another person says "Good fucking God that took forever to do I never want to do that again!"

One went through something challenging while another hit the same button for hours on end without any real thought, strategy, or interest.

Do you want to know why some people have over 200+ hours in a game like Street Fighter? Because short bursts of challenging/satisfying/addicting fun are accumulated over time. It isn't just one long string of boring. That'll burn anyone out after awhile. That's called a time sink, and there's nothing fun or challenging about that.

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Originally Posted by Vinta

Vinta Calvert: Saga, why don't you quit if all you do is complain?
Saga Xxxx: Vinta
Saga Xxxx: I don't play a game because I like it
Saga Xxxx: I play to be the best

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Heheh good call there.

There's another thing I notice in many players. They don't play for the experience. They play for the reward.

How often do we see people saying "the end game is all that matters, everything before that is useless" or people who refuse to engage in any activity if the reward isn't worth it to them?

I've wanted to run so many different dungeons in WoW, or finish various quest lines in XI that I needed help with, just to get to experience them. People would turn me down time and again, saying some variation of, "the rewards suck. It's not worth it".

I think this is why you see people more and more in favor of 100% drop rates and the like. They're not interested in the content. They just want the shiny reward at the end, and they want it as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Hmmm, well it seems this thread has become pretty popular! Regardless of opinion, that's good; it brings attention to it. But moving on, I've noticed a few things people have assumed and/or misunderstood that I feel I must clear, when it comes to my stance.

Firstly, the Primal Battles. Some apparently are under the impression that I was saying I didn't like the battles themselves, or they were too easy. This is untrue; I find the battles very challenging, and very refreshing. That being said, what I was contesting was the ease in which you can continuously enter these battles. I know I made a comparison to FFXI's BCNMs, and how much more sacrifice it took to get in those, but I'm not saying that we should emulate FFXI when it comes to Primals...but we should tone down the utter ease at least SOME. Think about it. For example, Ifrit: you need, to enter and beat him once and have access to chest, five Inferno Totems, yes? These totems have a drop rate of, for all intents and purposes, 100%. The mobs that they drop from can be EASILY soloed by all classes/jobs. It takes at most, five minutes of killing Amal'jaa to have access to what is considered one of the "top tier" battles that FFXIV can provide. Now, I'm not saying up it to 300 totems and cut the drop rate to 20% or some extreme like this, but do SOMETHING that tones it down a bit. This would serve to do two things. One: It would make the items obtained from this battle hold quite a bit more value, since it actually takes a little work to enter these fights, and two: it would decrease server load: instead of everyone and their family spamming Primal fights back-to-back, non-stop, you would have a steady flow of people entering these battles, not a complete flood of 3/4 the server trying to get in all the time.

Lastly, people seem to be under the impression that I'm here only for the challenge of hard crafts. Once more, this is not true. I only focused on the Darksteel items because, as I've said before, they are the very first items/battles/content I've seen that is actually outside the bounds of what is considered "casual" gaming.

Now that the misunderstandings are covered, I'd like to reply to the argument of "skill versus time". While I do agree that skill must be a factor in a game like this (indeed, it's quite essential), you cannot simply dismiss time as utterly irrelevant: that's utter arrogance, and the epitome of self-entitlement. Going by that argument, should FFXIV ever get the equivalent to FFXI's relic/mystic weapons, they should be accessible for simply putting in a day or two of 'skillful' gaming, and tada! You have the most powerful items in the game, bar none! The problem with that argument is twofold. Firstly, those items, to put it bluntly, should never be accessible by casual gamers. They were designed for what the extreme players, those who are utterly obsessed with the game. I'll admit, those items would not be for me; I would not be willing to pour THAT much time into this game...but there are those who crave just that, and who are you to deny them? Secondly, having everything in a game accessible within a few day's time just isn't economical, for FFXIV or any other MMO. When ALL content is so accessible, those extreme players, even the moderate ones, find themselves having accomplished all the game has to offer, very quickly. I know you've seen it happen already: people get to the top on FFXIV, find nothing else to do, get bored, and eventually drift away and simply don't log on again. This is not conducive to a successful MMO. I'm sorry if this offends you, but you CANNOT have all content so easily obtained, and in such a short time. There needs to be content for all 'tiers' of players, not just casual. Saying otherwise would show a great amount of self-entitlement; for me, or any other.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Final Fantasy (XI Excluded) has never really been about difficulty. Hell, unless you were doing sidequests, FFVII is one of the easiest games out there. The older Famicom/Super titles were difficult but in a tedious manner. 5 and 6 alleviated that, and the series continued to grow easier. Not that I mind, they still have some punishing bosses, and difficult content in the easy games.

Rambling on, Crafting in this game is already a chore. Don't make it even more of one.

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Amen

The Final Fantasies OP played and the Final Fantasies I've played must have been completely different games. I can list the truly challenging moments in this whole series in my hands, and 99% of those are related either to optional bosses (hello, Yazmat) or some of the (optional) mini-games and sidequests (1.000 jumps in FFIX's jump rope minigame, anyone?). And even those are just a matter of doing tedium leveling and / or repeating the same stuff over and over till you beat it.

In fact, there's only one mandatory content in the series (excluding FFXI) I would call challenging: Ramza VS Wiegraf solo fight + Velius battle right after in Final Fantasy Tactics. I wonder how many players had to start from scratch because they had no backup save....

If anyone is buying Final Fantasy for the challenge, they're doing it very wrong.