If they ever put a beast master limited job without adding a monster arena similar to FFX, I would be a bit disappointed.
I would go against the majority though and say that limited jobs are great, and I hope that Beast Tamer will be one.
I still think some adjustments are needed though. Like a limited job roulette for example, or having the level cap raised earlier (Blue mage should be capped at 80 already IMO), or the ability to freely switch between your tank/heal/dps stance.
Every update to Blue Mage so far have been a step in the right direction, and I am looking forward to seeing what is coming.
I hope someone will be able to have Yoshi-P discuss the limited job topics in length during the media tour....As far as I can remember, the last time he really spoke about it was when he said something like "before discussing it, we want to see how it goes when the level cap is raised to 70".
Beastmaster - Limited Job - Melee/Ranged/Gatherer Hybrid
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09-02-2021, 05:46 AMGarnix
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09-02-2021, 06:16 AMTrobon
I never realized how many people on the forums dislike limited jobs. Personally I love BLU and I know a lot of people in the game love it as well. Limited jobs allow for more unique styles of play and I would welcome more of them. Beastmaster would be a great one because it’s a job that is unlikely to be in the game otherwise. The devs have shown this games focus is on everyone who is the same class having the same base power structure and best gaming goes against this core concept.
Like BLU beastmaster would be best done with a collection and the ability to change what you are using to suit your play style. Otherwise it’s really no different than a SMN. So a limited job would be great for It. -
09-02-2021, 06:50 AMSeverianLyonesse
I don't have enough affinity to XIV's common monster designs to want to play Beastmaster.
HOWEVER, if we were able to collect boss monsters from FATES/Dungeons...that would be something I would play.
* Couerlregina
* Kaiser Behemoth
* Pazuzu
* Provenance Watcher
* Marquis Morbol
* Mist Dragon
* Kamaitachi
* Otengu
* Towering Oliphaunt/Opinicus
* Dahu
Maybe throw in Quetzacoatl and Shemhazai... -
09-02-2021, 08:10 AMSilverObi
Why not take a lot of these concepts and make them mini-game content in the Gold Saucer or adjacent to it? They could take the monster-fighting arena from FFXI and import it here with little to no changes. Why make different monster companions tied to a Limited Job when they could make them usable from a menu in our Companion screen? And I already suspect the upcoming Island Sanctuary will be a close mirror of XI's Mog Islands that let you obtain monster-related drops somewhat (highly debatable I'm sure) easier than just going out and mass killing.
There are some good ideas in OP but absolutely no reason they need to be shackled to another limited job. -
09-02-2021, 08:23 AMTrobonThe reason to tie them to a limited job is three-fold. One it gives the developers more freedom in creating a system which may be inherently unbalanced. There’s no need to worry about x, y, or z monster being the meta when it’s inherently a fun side activity. Second, many of us enjoy the limited job we have and would like more styles to play with. Finally, related to the first, a limited job can have systems in groups that something like the companion Chocobo can’t while still not upsetting group balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverObi
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09-02-2021, 08:59 AMShougun
I imagine if they had some of the better ideas in the 60 to 70 spells for all of them, and smoothed out a few more things, blue mage limited would have gone down at least a bit better, but they really messed up the initial landing (substantially) and therefore made the general concept difficult to rise again. In such a strong way that some people are suggesting ideas that are 'basically limited' but just not wanting to use the limited system because it's that tainted.
If they produce another limited job then I think it's important they hit the ground running at a much faster pace and with far more reason to justify the limited nature (which is difficult, not to suggest that's easy either).
Though I would caution using the iconic names if they're going in for round two (or at least be entirely certain 'this time is different'). Like if it's going to be some gathering beastmaster job, can call it shepherd instead and it allows you to distance yourself a bit more and reduce the knife to the heart of someone who was dying for "normal beastmaster" to more of a bludgeon to the chest (which could be made lighter by ensuring the 'reason for being' is justified and very strong from the start, if unsure I'd side on the side of overpowered balance than underpowered balance when discussing limited). Yet I still think if possible achieving a 'both' (normal and limited job- advanced job) could be cool, especially if the systems are designed in such ways that they're accessible both directions. An example would be say beastmaster levels by taming, training, with perhaps integrating to the island sanctuary (let your animals run free), this content can be enjoyed by pretty much everyone whether they were going to main the job or not. Then when you go 'normal' there are archetypes, similar to WoW, that your pets inhabit and so you can call on them in a far more balanced aspect (the animations for skills may be similar, even maybe some light flavoring that doesn't destroy balance entirely, but largely the skills are set into categories).
Light balance example might be maybe a cat has a silence on their attack, which doesn't apply to bosses, but is handy for interrupting trash mobs, meanwhile the bear might have increased defense against trash (again to avoid titan egi issues). Etc. With the archetype also allowing you to semi-customize how they behave, so you could bring in your favorite bear and phooka.. lol.. but they'd have some guidelines that allow a balanced expectation. (meanwhile limited would be far more "whatever the heck SE thinks is going to be really good fun").
Lore thought, just milking the idea I had suggested for blue mage becoming both (advanced) is that blue magic is actually toxic and therefore when you're with others, who didn't choose your company, you hold elements back to prevent harming them (such that DF and current content party finder disallow the "limited mode" for obvious reasons, yet the manually put together parties /'old' content party finder are allowed due to their willingness to accept your blue mist- almost treating it like smoking lol, smoking areas only ;P). Now this relates to beastmaster because I could imagine lore wise blue magic is the aggressive appropriation and monster energy while beastmaster is the nurturing of the very same energy, such that they both use blue energy but differently (like you might use nuclear energy to power your city, or you might use it to flatten one...). Given that it would also add the sense that beastmaster may have one animal's skill taught to another like pokemon :p. (Here blue mage would be able to be both by having some skills that make up their normal kit, and then all the skills that make up their limited kit, their normal kit being required to join DF but given they can learn in DF when in a logical content range (just like other jobs have a range, and so you can be in some dungeons with a job under a level of a spell) or of course via their limited side, which conveniently can learn limited spells while you're doing your DF normal side, so they feed into each other, and I think then is a non-major issue progression scheme).
One idea I think that might fit into limited a bit more smoothly though is magitek pilot g-warrior like content.
There is also a lot of play in thinking of systems that might blur the line (on what it means to be a 'limited job', systems that crawl out of their box), like puppet master might be able to craft yourself a custom minon with special interactions, even when you're not on that job, beastmaster replacing your companion field as another suggested. For magitek pilot you might have a system similar to xenogears / saga when open world, such that you can call down your own custom built combat mount while not actually having to be a pilot at the time. -
09-02-2021, 09:00 AMSeverianLyonesseYMMV on how fun an entirely separate broken system would be. SilverObi raises a good point to me, which is that we already have a "companion" system that could easily be built out into a universal beastmaster feature. I personally have never liked beastmaster classes because outside of pets they rarely have engaging abilities for the player character; but I do enjoy collecting and fighting pets, and I do already like fighting in *any* role alongside my chocobo. Removing the role/action limitation, making it something you can add-on to any existing class AND putting heavier focus on training the animal rather than yourself, all of these design decisions just feel like a better fit for beastmaster than making a THIRD pet system (on top of companions and SMN/SCH, four or five if you count minions and mounts).Quote:
Originally Posted by Trobon
YMMV also on how many people actually enjoy the limited job idea. I personally don't really care for the majority of Blue Mage's kit, both flavorfully and mechanically. And I also don't like that, because of how it was implemented, it has created this kind of insular meta where a) only a minority of players engage in because of how much duplicative work it takes to level the job and how little BLU content exists to reward the investment, and b) that minority can also be super picky about what your ability sets are to the point that you don't *really* get to play with more styles in group play. For claiming to offer variety and customization, BLU does a really poor job of both and I don't think that is a problem inherent to BLU but something that will be found in any limited job.
Point three is really the only legitimate concern I see, and even then I don't even see it as that huge of a barrier. Parties can be balanced around companions, and in fact that is a great alternative for players who prefer to play solo or have trouble finding groups for content. Companions already help immensely with FATEs, and frankly I would much rather have animal companions to the trust system for dungeons.
(I would also like to observe that just because certain classes existed in older FF games doesn't mean they necessary need to be shoehorned into a job role in XIV. Chemist made a lot more sense as a combat class then because all of the classes were combat based and we didn't have crafting systems; it was already feeling kind of awkward with Rikku in FFX, but by this point when we have a full-blown alchemist class, making it a battle class just feels like the wrong fit for the job. Similarly, beastmaster was made for game that didn't have companions or minions; now that we have an engine that better facilitates animal companions across classes--and already does to some extent--the appeal of a beastmaster class is substantially reduced.) -
09-02-2021, 03:50 PMGarnixThis is the issue whenever you have 'choice'. People will find the most "meta build" and everybody will use the same spells. But that's also why we have the solo "challenges".Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
The strange thing about the current Blue mage to me, is that it seems obviously meant to have OP spells on top of a standard "rotation". So I don't really think balancing blue mage for duty finder would be impossible if they really wanted to make it happen.
Regarding the companion system being extended for a "universal beastmaster", I agree and disagree. In concept it is certainly similar.
However, you could have similar arguments about any jobs really. Like "why do I need to be a paladin to equip a sword and shield?", or "why do I need to be a SCH to have a cute fairy?".
IMO another issue with the companion system is the AI. A Beastmaster should have at least a bit of control over the beast's actions IMO, which is basically how SMN works. And you cannot do that will all the jobs, simply because of button bloat. The devs also implied that SMN could get a rework in Endwalker. And I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to wait for that rework to be done before releasing beast master, so that they can re-use the same system.
+ Regarding classes not needing to be shoehorned in, that's true. But Beast tamers are already a thing lore-wise, and have been mentioned by name specifically by Yoshi-P, which is why there are requests for it coming regularly. And regarding Chemist, I would argue that the name "Apothecary" was dropped in 5.3 for a reason. They clearly want to leave the door open for the possibility. -
09-02-2021, 06:30 PMKozh
I honestly don't know how they will implement Beastmaster, since they are still struggling even with SMN and sch (main jobs that use pet). That's why I personally want them to focus more on the side activities, as in capturing monster, taming them, take care of them. Basically improved version of leveling our chocobo companion. Will be better if they use island sanctuary for this. Also: monster battle arena.
I already have fun raiding with blue mage, so I hope they will do the same with Beastmaster again. -
09-02-2021, 09:55 PMClaire_PendragonThey said a LOT more than just that. including letting players know the MSQ would allow you to (spoilers) play as alphy, way in advance, and was leaking way before this patch too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
SB was meant to have Tank, DPS, and Healer, like HW. They were running out of time after SAM, and had little time to finish RDM, much less BLU. Based on how EVERY DPS job in the game has a primary gimmick/gauge thats a timer ticking down, RDM would be the 1st DPS to play more like a healer, than a DPS. Which suggests RDM was intended to be the healer, before they said F it, and made it DPS to get it out in time for SB. BLU was originally the tank, but made into a melee DPS/utility, to try and get it out in a patch. (It had no real healing ability, and had a tank stance. its heal is based on dmg it took, which is further proof it was intended to be the tank of the 3 before SB release, and redesign to utility melee DPS.)
What's not said by the leaker, is at some point they decided to make tanks/healers over simplified. Which most likely is why DNC became a DPS. (Wonder why the dancing mechanic has a burst effect as it ends, rather than just a strong buff? if it were a healer, and had to stop acting for a few seconds, this would be a good way to refund the lost time, with a potent aoe heal/dps. wonder why the quest line involves healing? wonder why the animations come off very "heal"ish? wonder why DNC is ranged? (obviously cant have a melee healer, the SOLE reason ppl asked for DNC healer in the 1st place lol..)etc.) this leads into the next bit (speculation)
BLU had a melee weapon as a melee DPS (and originally tank) what was that weapon? What happened to all those animations he said were finished? (one of the hardest parts of making BLU, and what he said was taking so long. it wasnt spell animations, those were mostly done before the change to caster) they repurposed them into a new job. *cough* GNB *cough* (theres more to support this, but wont go into the detail.)
now obviously as yoshida says an employee suggested the idea of limited BLU to him, but the detail he left out is... obviously they suggested this to him, to not waste some of the work they already made. this is most likely why they thought a limited job was worth trying. and why they gave half truths in the reveal. they were trying to hide what happened to the job, and why it was made limited. but also thought it was better than not having BLU at all.