Congratulations Square Enix! FF4 surpasses WoW this year. (Source inside)

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

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I wish you put that much enthusiasm towards the links you post too. Because this is basically just clickbait with a lot of questionable data.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

The issue with this line is that there is no separation between a Retail and a Classic subscription -- it is all one subscription. Basing it off outside math (in this case Reddit) -- doesnt necessarily mean anything when there is no way to validate if a subreddit follower is an active sub. What also constitutes to an active player under the math of MMO-Population?

It is why it is questionable when MMO-Population has two different metrics for player counting: Top MMO (which supposedly is how many active players) and MMO Growth (which is supposedly the growth of players over 30 days -- both spout two different numbers with MMO Growth being literally the subreddit number just being used to show population count.

These are the issues that website has when they choose to no longer publish how they get their estimations. Because at the moment, MMO-P shows that FF14 has 2.5 million players but on their Growth page which supposedly shows "Growth in players over a 30 day period" it drops to sub-500k. We can double check and see that the growth number is from the FF14 main subreddit.

So the main question remains: where is 2.5 million coming from? What is the math they do to achieve that number?

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IMHO I only use MMO-Pop to figure out basic interest and numbers. Their graphs are pretty accurate in regards to player retention (WoW is known to have a rollercoaster whereas XIV is known to have a pretty steady line of retention.) However their actual numbers are pretty sketch. Only use them as a base model.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Source: https://finalweapon.net/2021/06/09/f...aft-this-year/


Obviously this data is subjective but can we talk about how much of a GENIUS decision it was to make from 1-60 free and include the Heavensward expansion.

I can see this causing major drama. Some people seem to think Twitch is a good reflection of population numbers for an MMO. This game is very huge in Japan but please tell me where they stream at as it is not Twitch.

Here is hoping this forces Blizzard to step up their game and we can get some real competition going in the MMO space making both MMO's better.

Congratulations Square Enix for having developers that treat players with respect.

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Hopefully this means we get a proper budget for the mass of a game that FFXIV is.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

I wish you put that much enthusiasm towards the links you post too. Because this is basically just clickbait with a lot of questionable data.

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This questionable data is coming some serious waves over in WoW land. It is going from a dull discontent to a flat out wave of rage across the board even with their most devoted creators. True, untrue or exaggerated the amount of people in WoW twiddling their thumbs waiting on content are being bombarded with content creators telling them FF14 is sitting here.

This community that FF14 has built that has complaints obviously PALES in comparison to how WoW players are being treated right now. Imagine if Yoshi P came out and said we have this fundamental change to how the game plays in Endwalker....he community voiced concerns and then Yoshi P came out and basically told the entire community they did not know what they were talking about. Say that same community shows faith in them and buys that expansion just to be proven 100% correct about how bad this system is.

Now the most HARDCORE of the hardcore supporters start providing them with verifiable detail, data and spreadsheets showing why this system is broken. Yoshi P responds to these people telling them they do not understand his vision for the MMO and tells them to get good or get over it. THENNNNNN every single patch after that initial launch is delayed by vast amounts of time with no new content because Yoshi P felt like he had to make this new system perfect.

We both know that the FF14 community would revolt and look for alternatives. Now imagine that Yoshi P repeated this same pattern for 3 expansions where they spend ENORMOUS development time working on new systems delaying content to throw it in the trash then start over telling the community they were the ones overreacting and not them making bad decisions.

That is why so many WoW creators are looking at FF14. They are tired of screaming at a brick wall.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

Hopefully this means we get a proper budget for the mass of a game that FFXIV is.

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This is long overdue. FF14 is currently biting at WoW's heals as the biggest MMO in the US and multiple other countries. Square Enix needs to realize this and give Yoshi P a blank check.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

It's just counting retail and classic as two separate games too...

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Many of which are the same people...

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

This questionable data is coming some serious waves over in WoW land. It is going from a dull discontent to a flat out wave of rage across the board even with their most devoted creators. True, untrue or exaggerated the amount of people in WoW twiddling their thumbs waiting on content are being bombarded with content creators telling them FF14 is sitting here.

This community that FF14 has built that has complaints obviously PALES in comparison to how WoW players are being treated right now. Imagine if Yoshi P came out and said we have this fundamental change to how the game plays in Endwalker....he community voiced concerns and then Yoshi P came out and basically told the entire community they did not know what they were talking about. Say that same community shows faith in them and buys that expansion just to be proven 100% correct about how bad this system is.

Now the most HARDCORE of the hardcore supporters start providing them with verifiable detail, data and spreadsheets showing why this system is broken. Yoshi P responds to these people telling them they do not understand his vision for the MMO and tells them to get good or get over it. THENNNNNN every single patch after that initial launch is delayed by vast amounts of time with no new content because Yoshi P felt like he had to make this new system perfect.

We both know that the FF14 community would revolt and look for alternatives. Now imagine that Yoshi P repeated this same pattern for 3 expansions where they spend ENORMOUS development time working on new systems delaying content to throw it in the trash then start over telling the community they were the ones overreacting and not them making bad decisions.

That is why so many WoW creators are looking at FF14. They are tired of screaming at a brick wall.

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Neat diary post. Again, none of this matters when the argument was "the website has no shown equations and their numbers seem to be based off subreddit count." It is very questionable that people prop up this website as the golden Messiah -- when they actively list dead games as having a player base, have no public published equations, and openly admit to using Reddit for numbers.

This is even more questionable after the previous LuckyBancho (which lists their criteria and how they get their numbers) came back with their census at 900k-1m at their previous census with ShB at their peak having 1.25 million.

So I will actively call BS to this 2.5 million number especially when FF14 is entering a drought -- because 1.5 million active players are appearing out of nowhere and MMO-P has no active way to determine what they consider an active player.

I could never really understand whats the WOW vs Final Fantasy 14 thing that people likes to talk about, as far as I can tell both games are what is called as a "Theme Park" MMO, so they are being catered to two different market, meaning FF14 are for Final fantasy fans and WOW are for warcraft fans, so when news comes out that "FF14 has surpassed WOW" I just can't seem to push myself enough to care, I don't need numbers to tell me Final fantasy is good, I know its good, that is all the validation I need.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Source: https://finalweapon.net/2021/06/09/f...aft-this-year/


Obviously this data is subjective but can we talk about how much of a GENIUS decision it was to make from 1-60 free and include the Heavensward expansion.

I can see this causing major drama. Some people seem to think Twitch is a good reflection of population numbers for an MMO. This game is very huge in Japan but please tell me where they stream at as it is not Twitch.

Here is hoping this forces Blizzard to step up their game and we can get some real competition going in the MMO space making both MMO's better.

Congratulations Square Enix for having developers that treat players with respect.

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Misleading. WOW and WOW classic were separated in this data, and combined they nearly double FFXIV's population. In all honesty though I'm surprised the number of "active" players is as high as it is, but quantity is not always an indicator of quality.


The free trial definitely breathed some new life into the community, but to say it's all positive or a GENIUS decision is highly subjective. Just take a look at pf, half of it isn't even recruitment for in game content. Prior to free trial the "active" community looked a lot different.

Also it sounds like you are saying WOW isn't real competition for this game? Which is just lol.

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Originally Posted by PMSJordan

Not with that type of Attitude. But seriously anything is possible. FFXIV keeps growing and WoW keeps losing player. It could happen in the future, but it would most likely be Blizzards fault if it does.

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It has nothing to do with attitude. Many People, especially within FFXIV are forgetting how long WoW has been arround the block and i am not exaggerating when i say that the Time from classic to Wrath of the Lich King was one of the greatest Times you could have had compared to any MMO. It had both it's ups and downs, but back then, WoW was way more than just a game, which was the reason why many people mocked their community for having all those "no-life nerds".

If we compare FFXIV's progress with WoW, were currently reaching the equivalent of
Mists of Pandaria with Endwalker, in terms of Progress and we have yet to reach any of the greatness which WoW archieved back then.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

If we compare FFXIV's progress with WoW, were currently reaching the equivalent of
Mists of Pandaria with Endwalker, in terms of Progress and we have yet to reach any of the greatness which WoW archieved back then.

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lol it helps that back then WoW's biggest competition was EQ2.......Blizzard got away with absolutely horrible balance and straight up ignoring player request for years until even the most minor competition like Rift, ESO, Aion, FF14, Wildstar came out.

It has been death by a thousands cuts and just really strange decisions.