Is their a DPS job, thats perfect that way it is?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

tl;dr I want new stuff for MCH. ;)

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I’d rather have what it DOES have to be improved before adding on crap. Turrets Have gotten worse from SB, wildfire was central to the gameplay loop but acts as a infrequent “Buff” and all the Ogcd/Gcd don’t really add much but bloat and a facade of speed. Delete some of MCH decaying mechs or improve them before adding more ...assuming they are and 6.0 won’t just have 1 aoe and a aoe turret which is my biggest fear for the job

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

And it's good that different classes cater to different preferences.

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Exactly!!! That´s why i don´t get why so many players want to change this or that class, which they´re probably not even main or just because stupid ACT shows 100 DPS less.

For me, nearly every class is well rounded, because pretty much all of them play different and cater different kind of players. Even when it comes to balancing, it´s overall fine and everything can be done with any class out there.
But that BLM is named so often here, is something i don´t get. Yes, this class is a powerhouse and has some special moves, but most of the skills are just not needed on max level. And if i compare it to monk, who is still in trouble with positionals on certain boss mechanics and is pretty much the melee-counterpart of BLM, than the damage difference is way too big. I would actually prefer a nerf or more useful buttons for BLM since it´s way too powerful unless tons of boss mechanics ruin the casts completely. That said, i wouldn´t say BLM is perfect the way it is.

All the others (monk excluded) seems to be fine. You´ve easier and harder classes, you´ve raid-supports and raw damage dealer and all of them have their specials. Monk is the only class which lost its soul and got pretty much braindead to play. It´s just like a new dragoon just with a 123 instead of a 1234 rotation and off gcd spam. The 5.3 monk was way better and the opener was not overfilled with off gcd´s.

Overall everyone should be able to find 1-3 classes for him/herself. There is no need to bring all classes to a 3 button rotation or change them in favor of "maybe i would play it, if....!". When poeple don´t enjoy 1 of 18?! classes, just live with it and let the others enjoy it as it is.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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No! Just NO!

1. Maintaining GL was totally easy if you played your rotation well, which is the same you´ve right now. There was nothing busy, the opposite is a fact. You had more movement speed to play positionals or to avoid boss mechanics. You had more time for your opener since you had to stack GL first for less cd´s. The current monk has become busy from begin, you lost your extra movement speed, you´ve to spam more off gcd´s and you lost a 30s window of RoE, instead you´ve to spam this button too and it´s still not enough for certain boss mechanics.
Monk has become easier and more forgivable yes, but only for those who never tried to play monk in the first case or even at all. You can missclick whatever you want, you can die etc... but you won´t lose that much and this is a joke.

2. Monk had skills which helped to maintain GL very easy, those got wrecked and now you want new skills? Come on...

3. POSITIONALS HAVE TO STAY!!!!!! It´s the core of the monk. GL is already gone and you want to make it even more worse? What´s the point in having a 2nd SAM, we already got a SAM! Play SAM instead, it´s not so hard. Melee´s are so boring without real positioning and having a dumb ressource like you´ve on X other chars, is even more boring. Staying behind the boss and playing 123, wow... It´s fine like it is and if you´ve can´t live with "play SAM", then just stay behind the boss as monk. Losing side-positionals is not that big of a deal in kind of damage if you do everything else perfectly.

Really please stop suggestions to change classes completely. You don´t enjoy it that way? Don´t play it!
I don´t come like "Öhhh Paladin is unplayable, smashing 2 buttons 5 times in a row is no fun, please rework!", just because it´s nonsense. There are other classes i enjoy and one of them is definately Monk. All those casual changes and braindead classes are just boring. If others enjoy it, cool, good for you, but stop stop trying to make the last 2,3,4 classes, which actually need a bit more efford than pressing lightning buttons (yeah dancer, looking at you), the same easy to play stuff. This game is already easy enough and the class differences and difficulties are the real enjoyment in its gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

2. I would like to say I hate the positional's for MNK.

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Then don't play Monk. Seriously.

Everything about this particular set of suggestions is terrible and would eliminate what little identity the job still has. Ironically, the removal of GL retroactively made already problematic tools in the kit outright worthless, and the changes made to those tools to account for the removal of GL didn't actually fix how lacking the kit still feels.

Hilariously, one of the things that made positionals a non-factor for stretches of fights got changed as well, because it was pretty obvious that the devs DIDN'T want players to not engage with that aspect of the job.

If you want fewer positionals, play literally any other DPS.

Just because I don't enjoy playing Summoner doesn't mean the job has such crippling flaws that we should just remove their pets from the game. Just because I don't have as much fun with Ninja as I did with Monk prior to Shadowbringers doesn't mean we should add form of GL to it and double the number of positionals it currently has. Not every job has to be forcibly redesigned to cater to people who don't want to engage with the mechanics unique to them in the first place.

I don't think any of the dps jobs are perfect. The general problem with a lot of jobs is that their rotations don't come together until super late in their levelling process. Like I love Samurai at 80. I think samurai at 80 is just about perfect and the tweaks I want made to it are just really minor QoL things. I have literally no idea what they could add or remove from samurai to improve it. But samurai is a terrible job to play below level 62 and I frequently do content that isn't max level so I care about that. Samurai also garbage in frontlines (at least in comparison to nin and drg), another thing I do regularly but that I would not ever take samurai into.

If I had to pick one job though, I would say Machinist. While Machinist never feels quite as good as high level samurai, it's a job I can happily queue for just about anything with and be pretty pleased with my kit no matter the level. If I lose the ldr lottery and roll into sastasha, I will have an instant aoe skill. is 80 machinist fun in exdr? You bet. NRR/Trials into 60/70 content? Still going to be fun (unlike samurai at level 60 where you have to skip kaitening midares to kaiten higenbana and I want to die every time). Good in frontlines? Sure is. Fate grinding? Worked as fine as anything. Same with daily quests. So for being able to queue up for just about anything and be sure that I will have a good time, I give the nod to mch.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

If I had to pick one job though, I would say Machinist. While Machinist never feels quite as good as high level samurai, it's a job I can happily queue for just about anything with and be pretty pleased with my kit no matter the level. If I lose the ldr lottery and roll into sastasha, I will have an instant aoe skill. is 80 machinist fun in exdr? You bet. NRR/Trials into 60/70 content? Still going to be fun (unlike samurai at level 60 where you have to skip kaitening midares to kaiten higenbana and I want to die every time). Good in frontlines? Sure is. Fate grinding? Worked as fine as anything. Same with daily quests. So for being able to queue up for just about anything and be sure that I will have a good time, I give the nod to mch.

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my head hurt reading “MCH” and “Best Job” in the same context. Allow me a few seconds to drain out all my beef to try to make a counter claim real quick.

The context of what it means to be a good job is very flawed, a job in game will never perform as well at 18s 50s and 80s in the same manner nor is it the jobs fault. In this case it is, as MCH doesn’t evolve past 50 at all it gets 1/2 skills and the rest are shallow as water upgrades that don’t add anything new mech wise and are spread very very thin. Takes 10 levels to get your complete heated rotation when in SB it was all at once. The jobs shallowness shouldn’t be Celebrated it should be a striking concern for the jobs stagnation so early in the game. It isn’t “Synch friendly” it just doesn’t have a lot going for it.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

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I think the actual issue is not the players, but the developers still not having a clue on where the Summoner is going for the past 2 expansions, because they are in this odd middle point as they are no longer a fully functional pet job (and by that I mean with what means to manage a pet), but they didn't go all the way to the opposite direction.

And the root of SMN's problems appears to be actually beyond design, but the game code not allowing a fluid gameplay with pets. Unless 6.0 brings an overhaul in the code structure (what is the likeness of that to happen?) I honestly think that Egis are going to probably be just a cosmetic feature and Summoners will fully embrace Trance rotation, ending just with a big flashy spell in the form of the Demi summon coming and unleashing their signature move.

Same reason why I think Beastmaster will probably come as a Limited Job, because being outside of mainstream content, they can cope with the clunky pet interactibility, especially if it's solo play. Heck, I'd even go further and say that BST pet combat will be a separate feature on its own.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

my head hurt reading “MCH” and “Best Job” in the same context. Allow me a few seconds to drain out all my beef to try to make a counter claim real quick.

The context of what it means to be a good job is very flawed, a job in game will never perform as well at 18s 50s and 80s in the same manner nor is it the jobs fault. In this case it is, as MCH doesn’t evolve past 50 at all it gets 1/2 skills and the rest are shallow as water upgrades that don’t add anything new mech wise and are spread very very thin. Takes 10 levels to get your complete heated rotation when in SB it was all at once. The jobs shallowness shouldn’t be Celebrated it should be a striking concern for the jobs stagnation so early in the game. It isn’t “Synch friendly” it just doesn’t have a lot going for it.

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But wouldn't it being synch friendly make it a good job by design? There's always complaints about how bad jobs feel at lower levels since you do not have your full rotation or QoL higher level buffs to the buttons you have when synched down while MCH gets its main stuff at lower levels. It then gets upgrades to the buttons they already have instead of getting entirely new buttons. Plus even in SB it wasn't really a job that had a bunch of buttons to press nor evolved much. The main thing that happened in SB once you got your heated actions and stablizer is that you stayed between 50 and 100 to optimize your damage and used heat blast to stay between that line until wild fire was up then go into burst with over heating and using wild fire then waiting the 10 seconds to reapply gauss, use stablizer and then repeat the process.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I think the actual issue is not the players, but the developers still not having a clue on where the Summoner is going for the past 2 expansions, because they are in this odd middle point as they are no longer a fully functional pet job (and by that I mean with what means to manage a pet), but they didn't go all the way to the opposite direction.

And the root of SMN's problems appears to be actually beyond design, but the game code not allowing a fluid gameplay with pets. Unless 6.0 brings an overhaul in the code structure (what is the likeness of that to happen?) I honestly think that Egis are going to probably be just a cosmetic feature and Summoners will fully embrace Trance rotation, ending just with a big flashy spell in the form of the Demi summon coming and unleashing their signature move.

Same reason why I think Beastmaster will probably come as a Limited Job, because being outside of mainstream content, they can cope with the clunky pet interactibility, especially if it's solo play. Heck, I'd even go further and say that BST pet combat will be a separate feature on its own.

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I don't think the egis are gonna go to a purely cosmetic feature, they made new ways to have "pets" in shb so i think they will use those new features next expansion. Though i will say SB was the best iteration of smn hands down. Everything just flowed fluidly and was fun to optimize while not being as strict as it is now.

I also think they are gonna just use the old pet coding for beast master going off how they fight in bozja. Having hp bars for the beasts would make sense if they were trying to capture the feeling of 11 BST. Same reason why i think it'll have the colosseum match's as well (as much as i wish it not to be so and for it to be full job but c'est La Vie).

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Originally Posted by Jirah

my head hurt reading “MCH” and “Best Job” in the same context. Allow me a few seconds to drain out all my beef to try to make a counter claim real quick.

The context of what it means to be a good job is very flawed, a job in game will never perform as well at 18s 50s and 80s in the same manner nor is it the jobs fault. In this case it is, as MCH doesn’t evolve past 50 at all it gets 1/2 skills and the rest are shallow as water upgrades that don’t add anything new mech wise and are spread very very thin. Takes 10 levels to get your complete heated rotation when in SB it was all at once. The jobs shallowness shouldn’t be Celebrated it should be a striking concern for the jobs stagnation so early in the game. It isn’t “Synch friendly” it just doesn’t have a lot going for it.

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Naw, I don't agree. To be honest, I generally hate what people consider to be depth and as such, I don't value it and it doesn't enter into my equation. That the mch rotation doesn't evolve past 50 isn't a flaw to me, it's a perk because that means at 50 the kit feels complete to play and that makes content done at level 50 more fun. Contrast this with blm, a job which feels completely different to play under 50, at 50, at 60, and at 70 and for me at least, is a miserable, terrible job under 70 that I want nothing to do with.

And to use my main job, samurai, as a further example, samurai is a dirt easy job. All the way from 1-72 when you get tsubame all you really need to do is make sen, spend kenki when it gets to 35, use your cooldowns more or less as they come up. When you get tsubame, that adds the only real depth to the job, but it's insanely stupid depth. Now you have to figure out, on the fly, how to make use of meikyo, hagakure, and yaten enpi combo to manipulate your gcd to line up a midare exactly when tsubame comes off cooldown. It is an utterly unintuitive mechanic that you would probably never figure out how to use optimally on your own. I know I sure didn't and it wasn't until I read the balance and learned how the manipulation works and then the skill speed break points and even after that it still took about a month of playing it before I was comfortable enough to do it on the fly.

Is this fun? Sure, I find it satisfying to do, it makes me feel clever and rewards me for learning a thing and developing a skill. Do I miss having to do it when I sync under 72? Absolutely not. Not as much as I miss kenki mastery 2 when I end up under 62 which is the lynchpin of the whole job as far as I am concerned. If they deleted tsubame would I miss the depth it brings? No, even if the left the job entirely as is, it would still be my favorite.