A thing or two about Werlyt

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Do you think Gaius doesn't also feel guilt about some of the things he's done?

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Im pretty sure he does, we know he isnt into torture for fun or anything like that - sure some of his man were terrible, but, you cant expect him to know what every guard is doing all the time. Fordulas Parents were awaited to a dinner with him - something youd pretty surely hear from very few legati, or even garlear at all. The guards watching them get attacked surely just reported an suprise attack on them and call it a day.
Im pretty sure he would've stopped em...

Or his kids, all of those we know arent even hyur/elezen but aura, yet he still cared for tehm, others would surely just leave em to die...


Im not saying hes an Angel, but he surely deserves a chance - he was raised in an "evil" empire but still is a decent person. Leaving ppl a choice, not using weapons of mass destruction... he could've just use the ultima weapon to burn all major cities and take whats left... yes hes all for "might makes right" or however you call it but hes against absuing power...

In the end id say he did the wrong things for the right reasons - unlike beings as Zenos who do the wrong things for fun lol

I kinda interpreted several lines in Werlyt as him coming to terms with things being his fault, assuming he is telling the truth... He does say something along the lines of "I thought I could change the world" in 5.4... But dear, the backdrop of it and how they made it basically at the cost of him looking like an idiot... This was not good writing. Then again, I am not sure where exactly they are even going with this arc... Redemption would be my preferred route, but I cannot be certain. And whether it is redemption, betrayal or straight up death( oh gosh not that again), the setup isn't looking good regardless. I can only hope that if he survives, they give him more screentime and a better writer in the expac.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Im pretty sure he does, we know he isnt into torture for fun or anything like that - sure some of his man were terrible, but, you cant expect him to know what every guard is doing all the time. Fordulas Parents were awaited to a dinner with him - something youd pretty surely hear from very few legati, or even garlear at all. The guards watching them get attacked surely just reported an suprise attack on them and call it a day.
Im pretty sure he would've stopped em...

Or his kids, all of those we know arent even hyur/elezen but aura, yet he still cared for tehm, others would surely just leave em to die...


Im not saying hes an Angel, but he surely deserves a chance - he was raised in an "evil" empire but still is a decent person. Leaving ppl a choice, not using weapons of mass destruction... he could've just use the ultima weapon to burn all major cities and take whats left... yes hes all for "might makes right" or however you call it but hes against absuing power...

In the end id say he did the wrong things for the right reasons - unlike beings as Zenos who do the wrong things for fun lol

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While I do consider his parenting questionable at best, I do agree with you on him being far from the vilest the Empire can offer. He may be exceptionally stubborn, proud and head in his own delusion, but unlike some, he is capable of reason and rational thought, as well as inhibitions and a moral code, twisted as it may be. And I've seen fiction offer redemption to worse people than him. Much worse. I just... Want it to be better than basically him being oblivious to everything and the writers messing up his character in the process.

Besides... I may be going offtopic by stating a personal preference... I feel like the topic of living past crushing defeats and rebuilding oneself in accordance with the new world around you isn't very frequently explored in fiction. Very often a character who has done evil for too long/ is too traumatized/ has too much blood on their hands is offed in the story by one means or the other, because "they can't live normally afterwards anyway", according to many authors. I have felt for some time that utilizing such a justification and killing aforementioned characters has been an easy way to evade heavier topics. I feel like Gaius would be an interesting character to explore from that perspective. The person that has outlived their purpose struggling to find a reason to go on.

The problem with Gaius is that way he has been retconned since he was brought back in Stormblood - retconned into being "the true believer, the GOOD Garlean general - is simply incompatible with the way Garlemald has been presented.

He massacred the WoL's old Scion friends in 2.0. He sent Livia into the Waking Sands and she executed almost everyone there. And then Gaius kept sending soldiers after us all throughout 2.0, even trying to get Biggs and Wedge. Then he was going to use the Ultima Weapon to start blowing up cities until Eorzea surrendered. He was also said to be the conqueror and ruler over Ala Mhigo, and apparently his rule was so brutal that people would rather die trying to cross the border and escape. And hundreds did so in droves. Gaius was clearly meant to be an unsympathetic, evil imperialist for us to kill and then move on.

After he was brought back in Stormblood, the writers tried to retcon him as "misguided but not evil", with him shutting down Black Rose and being retconned as "the good governor" of Ala Mhigo before "the evil Zenos took over". "Actually, Livia massacred the Scions on her own accord out of jealously!". The game is presenting him as a cool character and a "tragic hero", but there is just no getting around the "he murdered hundreds of people and was planning on murdering hundreds more" part.

It is unbelievable that Gaius spent years in the Garlean army and somehow didn't know that 90% of the Empire he was working for was heinously evil. There was no way for him to not have known. He would have been knowing enabling them and that makes him culpable. It is also unbelievable to me that, in such an environment, Gaius somehow became a general based on his merit, without being in the good graces of one of the evil wicked men in power. I really hope that the narrative doesn't turn around and try to go "Valdeaulin is wrong for having a grudge and misjudging Gaius!".

I wish there was an option for me to lop his head off. But if he dies by the end of this storyline, I'll be happy too.


It's rather sad that we don't have any good Garlean characters. They're either defectors (Cid/Lucia/Nero/Maxima) or they're not actually good, they're just not twirling their mustache (Regula/Varis/Gaius). I was excited when Asahi was introduced. "Finally! A decent Garlean who is working from within the system trying to make things better!", but then they turned around went "nope, he's evil".

It's a great shame that Garlemald has been shafted like this. Every other nation and culture in the game is multifaceted; we get to explore their towns and villages, work with good guys and occasionally fight the few bad apples. But Garlemald is afforded no such luxury and is just shoved into the "evil" barrel with no room for non-evil Garleans. I would have liked for Garlemald to have been treated like any other nation: you go there, meet their NPCs, go side questing in the region, and occasionally bump into the evil minority faction.


As for Werylt, I think it's an overall good storyline. Gaius aside (I guess I might have enjoyed his inclusion more if he had voice acting, Michael McElhatton is just nice to listen to), I like getting to explore new locations. I wish there were more NPCs at Terncliff and that the playable area was larger (kinda wish that we could explore a little outside the town). The weapon /mech designs are cool and the boss fights are fun. The Valens cutscenes are great. I'm indifferent to the kids. I wish that Oversoul had been used to allow us to learn about different Garlean warriors and expand their lore, rather than just rehashing guys we already knew and already fought.

( RE Moo)

I don't see how anything up until Werlyt was a retcon, honestly. Just because he has some virtues does not mean he is a good person. Yes, he stopped the Black Rose because he had standards, that does not make him good. Good and evil are not clear-cut, sometimes bad people do good deeds and good people do bad deeds, that's what it's about. Not being 100% evil does not automatically make one good, this is exactly what I have been saying for most of this thread. That does not change the fact that he conquered Ala Mhigo or anything, he may be better than the other Garleans, but still a Garlean. And actually, Stormblood shows the extent of his fuckups as a governor( see Fordola's story, many sidequests). I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that Livia killed people on her own accord, the only thing said about her so far was that she was extremely jealous and kept the other kids away, it was not stated anywhere.

As for unsympathetic... I would disagree, since it seems the only character SE considers( or considered, a pre-Stormblood interview with Yoshi-P indicates that by creating Zenos they intended to create one villain completely devoid of redeeming qualities) completely unsympathetic is Zenos. And even if we assume something was initially "meant" a certain way does not mean things do not change. The same Zenos seems to get more development in the recent content and supplementary material. I am not sure why you are saying something was "meant" to be a certain way when the writers chose the other way. You may criticize these writing decisions, as I said earlier, stating that something is has always been meant a certain way is not a good argument.

I am not sure where you got the part on Regula and Varis being cartoonishly evil either. While Regula barely gets any development in the MSQ, he gets more in the Warring Triad questline, and while Varis is underdeveloped, supplementary material and some scenes in the MSQ indicate a lot of personal tragedy that has influenced him.

The only part I agree with you is the part on him being oblivious is unbelievable( and insulting to his character if you ask me), and on Garlemald being seemingly shafted, unless they re setting the expansion there after all, which they don't seem to. The rest of your points are debunkable and lack any sort of moral nuance, and I hope the opposite of what you wished happens. Him living will make me happy.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

He massacred the WoL's old Scion friends in 2.0. He sent Livia into the Waking Sands and she executed almost everyone there. And then Gaius kept sending soldiers after us all throughout 2.0, even trying to get Biggs and Wedge. Then he was going to use the Ultima Weapon to start blowing up cities until Eorzea surrendered.

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But he asked to surrender, he did not showcase his weapon first or jsut killed every ruler to pic up the leftovers - its a difference. He know mercy, he has standards.

Sure he killed a lot of ppl, soldiers and warriors that opposed him - its IS war after all... its not like Limsa didnt kill beast trimes, their pirates didnt kidnap girls or outrigth kill ppl. Ulda is a totally different hellhole...

Gor the mhigan ppl... i just dont trust them, the way they act... just bc they wanted to flee doesnt mean it was THIS bad. just look the few we got, mostly hotheads readly killing or assaulting ppl... just look at fordulas parents, how they were treaded...

I do believe that Ala Mhigo was shit. But I do consider what he did at the Waking Sands to be something most people would do at war. Taking advantage of an opportunity. How many times have we sneaked in small groups somewhere and killed lots of people on the opposite side, really? Yes, we are the good guys here because we are not conquering imperialists, but in the end, using that tactic alone does not make him any eviler. These are other things that make him the villain, but sending soldiers to dispatch an enemy HQ is not one of them( must I remind anyone the assaults on Castrum Abania, or how Fordola got captured, these were basically us assaulting strongholds on the opposite side).

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

The obliviousness of Gaius "my right hand man was a mad scientist" Baelsar is a pretty common point of contention with the Sorrow of Werlyt, from what I've seen here and there.

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I admit to being rather alarmed at the sheer obliviousness Gaius was implied to have displayed when he apparently went "my right hand man is a mad scientist with a clear inferiority complex that he has not been shy about expressing. I shall therefore assign to him, as an assistant, a mad scientist with a clear inferiority complex towards me."

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I admit to being rather alarmed at the sheer obliviousness Gaius was implied to have displayed when he apparently went "my right hand man is a mad scientist with a clear inferiority complex that he has not been shy about expressing. I shall therefore assign to him, as an assistant, a mad scientist with a clear inferiority complex towards me."

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Oh, this is puzzling to me too. If anything, I too was surprised that they had to connect Valens with the XIVth, twisting not only the past characterization of Gaius, but also Nero.

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Originally Posted by EliTheGunbreaker

I do consider what he did at the Waking Sands to be something most people would do at war. Taking advantage of an opportunity. How many times have we sneaked in small groups somewhere and killed lots of people on the opposite side, really? Yes, we are the good guys here because we are not conquering imperialists, but in the end, using that tactic alone does not make him any eviler. These are other things that make him the villain, but sending soldiers to dispatch an enemy HQ is not one of them( must I remind anyone the assaults on Castrum Abania, or how Fordola got captured, these were basically us assaulting strongholds on the opposite side).

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I believe that this is one of the failings of FFXIV, though there are few reasons behind this.

FFXIV is structured as a WoW style MMO, and during ARR and Heavensward the quests were structured as such. They pretty much boiled down to "accept quest, go here, kill X, talk to next NPC, watch cutscene, end quest, accept next quest". It wasn't until the Heavensward patches that they really began to eschew that, though the structure is still there. But Garlemald wasn't created during the HW patches. It was created in 1.0. They were created to provide a lore justification for a large number of fodder enemies to fight in an MMO. I guarantee you that the writers were not thinking about the moral implications of the player character casually killing untold numbers of humanoid enemies, because a nuanced story was simply not what they were focusing on. That came later. Had FFXIV not been structured like an MMO, and had the writers who came later been writing Garlemald since the beginning, Garlemald would have almost certainly not been created to just to be evil fodder you kill and forget about. I suppose it's a testament to the current team that this flaw is one of the few glaring faults in FFXIV's story that I can find and that they unfortunately can't really shake off, but it is nonetheless still a fault.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I believe that this is one of the failings of FFXIV, though there are few reasons behind this.

FFXIV is structured as a WoW style MMO, and during ARR and Heavensward the quests were structured as such. They pretty much boiled down to "accept quest, go here, kill X, talk to next NPC, watch cutscene, end quest, accept next quest". It wasn't until the Heavensward patches that they really began to eschew that, though the structure is still there. But Garlemald wasn't created during the HW patches. It was created in 1.0. They were created to provide a lore justification for a large number of fodder enemies to fight in an MMO. I guarantee you that the writers were not thinking about the moral implications of the player character casually killing untold numbers of humanoid enemies, because a nuanced story was simply not what they were focusing on. That came later. Had FFXIV not been structured like an MMO, and had the writers who came later been writing Garlemald since the beginning, Garlemald would have almost certainly not been created to just to be evil fodder you kill and forget about. I suppose it's a testament to the current team that this flaw is one of the few glaring faults in FFXIV's story that I can find and that they unfortunately can't really shake off, but it is nonetheless still a fault.

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I feel like you are missing my point. Not only do the examples I provided come from Stormblood, which is when the game already was past it's crisis, and also the aforementioned DRK quests actually tackle the player killing lots of people. The devs do not do it because "they don't care and it's a format flaw". It is clear that they know the player killing people is a thing and, touched upon the subject in different content, and continue doing so. My last post was not even about why or how Garlemald was created out of universe, in the end the point still stands that the player and their NPC allies have killed lots of people in-universe, by the same methods that you seem to condemn in the bad guys, making said condemnation pointless. This isn't limited to FFXIV either. How many heroic characters in fiction are seen raiding enemy strongholds? If we condemn every character in fiction that raided an enemy stronghold and killed lots of people and believe them to be eviler than the others in their setting for that fact alone( even when the other characters do the same), then most Star Wars characters should be condemned, and a lot of other characters in fantasy/ science fiction works that portray war. Because surprise, people do that shit when at war.

Like I said, Gaius has plenty of misdeeds. But talking how horrible him sending Livia to raid the Waking Sands is when the WoL's superiors do the exact same thing is a bit hypocritical, don't you think?