Man & Machine: a MCH Thread

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Christ I agree with this. I make a suggestion that I’d like to see WF crit in another thread and it got churned out into “you don’t know what mch really need” bla bla bla. I’m sat here thinking. I enjoy mch as it is, I just wanna see a big Number for no other reason than that. A big number

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Didn't we provided an explanation as to why it was a bad idea?
Wildfire would have inconsistent damages, players were already tired of the RNG damage based SB/HW Wildfire and you want to make it back.
It would also change nothing in the use and presence of wildfire itself.

If you want a bigger number it's better to increase the potency.

But you remained sticked to your own opinion, let me quote:
"All of you are entitled to your opinion. I just hope SE listens to none of you and simply makes wildfire crit. Happy mer, problem solved"
"Literally don’t care about what everyone thinks mch needs."

MCH players disagree with your request, you throw a tantrum. (Look, you even bring your problem to another topic)
And refuses to try to understand other people arguments.

If anything, you should try to understand why players don't want certain changes.
And on the opposite, why some request are repeated by multiple players.

For example, there was a suggestion where ranged would have damage based on the distance between the player and the target.
If it was close range, it would be okay, but the player suggested the opposite. The more the distance, the more the damage.
Me and many others did not agreed with it, not because of the changes of playstyle, but because there would be conflict with short ranged healing such as WHM Cure III or SCH Sacred Soil. They would need to adapt because melees and ranged wants to deal more damage instead of the DPS adapting in order to get more damage and more healing.

I also suggested ideas that turned out to be bad. But I did not threw a tantrum, I tried to understand why it would be a bad change.

In the case where MCH playerbase would want more RNG, your idea would be great.
But that's not the case and SQEX cannot make a change to satisfy a single player, right?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

For example, there was a suggestion where ranged would have damage based on the distance between the player and the target.
If it was close range, it would be okay, but the player suggested the opposite. The more the distance, the more the damage.
Me and many others did not agreed with it, not because of the changes of playstyle, but because there would be conflict with short ranged healing such as WHM Cure III or SCH Sacred Soil. They would need to adapt because melees and ranged wants to deal more damage instead of the DPS adapting in order to get more damage and more healing.

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I think there's a place for some version of this idea.

Outside of Mnk all other melees have a reasonable level of positionals and TN (along with RoE) to completely ignore them for a time. Bard and Mch can have 1 skill that does more Damage up close and 1 that does more damage from a distance and some kinda TN or "scope" skill that lets them ignore that for a time. Boom, they would want to stay in the "sweet spot" distance so that they can go either way and if they have to they just use their TN skill so that they can respect mechs and not leave the healer bubbles.

I say Brd and Mch cause this is kinda vaguely half way how Dnc already works with their dances and burst windows (in that you have to think about distance. You have to be close to blow your Bloodshower proc and in a situation like e7s you would do "more dmg" by getting into a position where your dance hits 2-3 adds at once which wont happen if you're in melee range where you would only hit one).

Giving them this bit to think about would be a great reason for increasing their DPS.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

I think there's a place for some version of this idea.

Outside of Mnk all other melees have a reasonable level of positionals and TN (along with RoE) to completely ignore them for a time. Bard and Mch can have 1 skill that does more Damage up close and 1 that does more damage from a distance and some kinda TN or "scope" skill that lets them ignore that for a time. Boom, they would want to stay in the "sweet spot" distance so that they can go either way and if they have to they just use their TN skill so that they can respect mechs and not leave the healer bubbles.

I say Brd and Mch cause this is kinda vaguely half way how Dnc already works with their dances and burst windows (in that you have to think about distance. You have to be close to blow your Bloodshower proc and in a situation like e7s you would do "more dmg" by getting into a position where your dance hits 2-3 adds at once which wont happen if you're in melee range where you would only hit one).

Giving them this bit to think about would be a great reason for increasing their DPS.

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If you're going to add a distance mechanic to encourage BRD and/or MCH to hit enemies from a far enough distance away with perhaps an OGCD, or GCD with a cooldown, then you'll need to add some kind of way players can tell if they're far enough, because it's not really easy to tell how far away 15 yalms, or whatever (Though Bard can use Repelling shot to immediately get to where they need to be if that was the distance requirement.

Honestly I think it would be simpler, yet equally effective if these actions just cannot be used against enemies at close range like a reverse melee range mechanic, that way there's never a concern about "did I go far enough? Crap I was a yalm too close." As stated though, having all their damage work like that wouldn't just be harmful for healers, but also it contradicts how encounter design is made. A lot of mechanics throughout the game were designed with the idea that players would need to be close to the boss or each other, such as Eden 5 Savage's Chain Lightning.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

If you're going to add a distance mechanic to encourage BRD and/or MCH to hit enemies from a far enough distance away with perhaps an OGCD, or GCD with a cooldown, then you'll need to add some kind of way players can tell if they're far enough, because it's not really easy to tell how far away 15 yalms, or whatever (Though Bard can use Repelling shot to immediately get to where they need to be if that was the distance requirement.

Honestly I think it would be simpler, yet equally effective if these actions just cannot be used against enemies at close range like a reverse melee range mechanic, that way there's never a concern about "did I go far enough? Crap I was a yalm too close." As stated though, having all their damage work like that wouldn't just be harmful for healers, but also it contradicts how encounter design is made. A lot of mechanics throughout the game were designed with the idea that players would need to be close to the boss or each other, such as Eden 5 Savage's Chain Lightning.

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This can be addressed several ways actually.

1- From an UI PoV the Icon could change in Color/ Design or have a scope icon over-lap it to show it's now empowered. It's not hard by any measure to show something like this, even less so with a role that ask the player to look at the hot bar for procs.
2- They could just do what they're already doing and let people figure it out with practice. Like Slide Casting, it's a thing that allows casters to play more optimally. Does the game have a line in the cast bar telling them "Ok, you can move now!"? No, you just gotta figure out when it's safe to move without interrupting your cast (not to say they wont do something like that down the line. There's already illegal add ones that do that for you). Same for ... Dancer. As a Dnc I don't know exactly how close I have to be to hit something with my dances or my AoE procs, but it is something you get a feel for. Sometimes you don't want to chance it so you go full melee for a bit in your burst cause you can ... some times you risk it and you're meet with a big sad as your bloodshower or dance does nothing cause you were a lil too far away.

Also, having skills not go off if a target is too close is a hard no, it gimps pure solo Ranged PvE play. Mnk doesn't suddenly stop being able to do their rotation because they can't get to the back of a mob that's aggro on them.

As for Mechs in fights, asking a DPS to consider their distance from an enemy in their play doesn't doom them to die to mechs any more than asking them to consider their position around the near area of the boss. Sure, some people might get lost in the sauce and tunnel on it ... happens with melees all the time. So what? No boss fight is impossible for melees or Blm and no boss fight forces ranged jobs to be in melee range for whole fights.
(Also, nah, Chain Lightning doesn't require you to be close to the boss. PLAYERS made a STRAT that's popular and fairly safe that puts everyone close to the boss ... the Mech it's self? It works on a system of "Chain goes to who ever is closest". As a Ranged you can be 20ft away from someone and it will bounce to them so long as they are the closest target. This is why Triangle Strat is more fun for me as a Dnc, I can have 2 people sit still and do the mech for them instead of risking some non-sense cause someone moved too close. Even with circle strat I move OUT and to the side to pass the chain to someone so that there's no chance of them hitting me with their small AoE)

I just hope they do more to expand on the Automaton Queen.
She's cool.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I just hope they do more to expand on the Automaton Queen.
She's cool.

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Eventually instead of despawning, you can have her transform into armor that you wear and have your DPS enhanced as you wear her like a mini mech suit. My guess is the level 100 capstone.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Eventually instead of despawning, you can have her transform into armor that you wear and have your DPS enhanced as you wear her like a mini mech suit. My guess is the level 100 capstone.

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Going to be honest, I'd quit the job if that would happen. Or rather if that would happen to be a lazy design such as a bonus damage that does nothing else.
I love Machinist as a job that uses machines to deal diverse damages, like Edgar, Prompto using the big guns.
Using a Mech/Mech suit would kill the flow of the ranged/big guns job (Not comically too big, please), but that's my opinion and tastes.

The only reason to add this would be for fanservice purpose.
I'd rather like SQEX to explore further the Automatons and the Aetherotransformer.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I just hope they do more to expand on the Automaton Queen.
She's cool.

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I also hope we get some additionnal work on the AQ.
She's currently a glorified DoT with no interaction.

I was joking about that mech suit thing, lol, but you never know. When Heavensward came out, they were actually going to direct Summoner into becoming Bahamut, starting with the Dreadwyrm Trance, and when they got backlash, one of the statements they made during Stormblood was that "we learned that Summoner players didn't actually want to become bahamut. They just want to summon him." Or something to that nature, so who knows what will happen in the future.

Wildfire just needs a chance to crit/dh. This would put it in line with other 2 minute cooldowns (like Samurai's Senei). I actually enjoy the job flow, personally, and feel its a big improvement over the overheat mess we had in SB.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I just hope they do more to expand on the Automaton Queen.
She's cool.

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Replace Automaton Queen with G Warrior. MCH is amazing now. You are most welcome.