DRK enmity gen vs other tanks

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

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Assuming that people only played with the exact meta in raiding is a silly way to think about the time period(and the game in any time really). People used double WAR all the time due to its OP self-healing and reliant damage output that had less variance than DRK's due to part of DRK's being tied up in low blow procs/Reprisal. Sell runs and the like used double WAR all the time. The only time to not double WAR was when LB charge mattered, which wasn't a lot of fights, and in early prog due to having more damage downs on the boss(Reprisal/Delirium).

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Assuming that people only played with the exact meta in raiding is a silly way to think about the time period(and the game in any time really). People used double WAR all the time due to its OP self-healing and reliant damage output that had less variance than DRK's due to part of DRK's being tied up in low blow procs/Reprisal. Sell runs and the like used double WAR all the time. The only time to not double WAR was when LB charge mattered, which wasn't a lot of fights, and in early prog due to having more damage downs on the boss(Reprisal/Delirium).

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I never said they only played with the "exact meta." But the overwhelming majority of tank comps were WAR/DRK. Making them the most relevant to the discussion. PLD had aggro issues but that was among the reasons it wasn't often brought.

No, they did not. There is not a single ranked speed log from the Heavensward era with double Warrior. Dark Knight was undeniably the second tank. I have no idea where you've heard otherwise but it wasn't the case—nor was double Warrior all that common. Basing anything off sale groups is silly. They aren't trying to optimize unless they're selling a parse. Even then, they'll pad that one player not the entire team. Regardless, the crux of the argument was the OT used aggro combos for enmity. They didn't. Butcher's used to be a DPS gain before they buffed Storm's Path.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

FFlogs

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FFlogs =/= raiding playerbase, and ranked speed kills are even less common. You said OTs never used enmity combos, period. There was no delineation for solely enmity. And it doesn't even matter if it's dual WAR comp, because even in a DRK/WAR comp, the DRK MTs for their parry based damage procs back then, if the boss's AAs are physical, and the WAR OTs and uses their Butcher's Block combo, the enmity combo until enmity becomes an issue. What you said was wrong, get over it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

FFlogs =/= raiding playerbase, and ranked speed kills are even less common. You said OTs never used enmity combos, period. There was no delineation for solely enmity. And it doesn't even matter if it's dual WAR comp, because even in a DRK/WAR comp, the DRK MTs for their parry based damage procs back then, if the boss's AAs are physical, and the WAR OTs and uses their Butcher's Block combo, the enmity combo until enmity becomes an issue. What you said was wrong, get over it.

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Yes, let's dismiss a website entirely dedicated to tracking this information and go with your opinion. You haven't provided a single shred of evidence yet I can find several within a matter of minutes that completely contradicts your argument. You claimed people used double Warrior all the time based on... what, exactly? Your personal experience? That's why anecdote mean very little. "No dupes" has pretty much been ubiquitous in PF for years. That isn't to say some groups don't allow it, but you're trying to argue it as common. When it never was.

Admittedly, I was mistaken with regards to Butcher's because I forgot it once was a DPS gain. But the entire crux of this debate has been how it relates to enmity. That's the delineation. Aggro combos weren't being spammed nor was Butcher's used for enmity but damage. That distinction is important because had Storm's Path been a gain over Butcher's, they would be using Path instead. Even with Butcher's technically being a gain, it was still very infrequently used; less than a quarter of Storm's Eye on average going by logs from Heavensward. So no, Warrior did not use BB until it "became an issue." They barely used it at all. So kindly take your own advice.

really? you can basically mash 4-5 ogcd big attacks right from the start burst and you say low enmity gen? come on...maybe only a good gunbreaker can out dps drk the initial burst, in a long run ofc drk has low damage but inital enmity?

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Dude, there are times were I WISH I still had enmity combos(as well wishing enmity combos were DPS neutral) because there is still the chance that the main tank is going to die because, once again either the main tank forgot to pop cooldowns, ate too many vuln stacks, the healer forgot to pay attention to the main tanks HP bar or was busy keeping a DPS alive, or any combination of those things I just listed.

If you don't like stance dancing or enmity combos, go play a DPS or healer.

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Just wait until the initial brunt of your opener is over and turn tank stance on lmfao. The MT will have a permanent lead on you, and you'll be in second place. You do not need enmity combos for fights that want the OT to be in second place like E4S during phase 2. Stop asking for something you will never use, nor need, to come back. And you know what, to pour more fuel on the fire:

You did not stance-dance in Stormblood. That went completely out of the window in everything but ultimate, and even then, your usage of tank-stance was very limited. You should never have needed to use more than one enmity combo while tanking during Stormblood, and that's the end of it. They weren't really an issue, and it boiled down to SE making tank stance desirable or removing it. So they did the latter and took the worthless enmity combos with them. You have the tools to deal with 'aggro issues' right now. And even if the MT in your 8-man is bad and you're gaining on them with stance on you could just ... turn stance off or shirk? Both of these will leave you in second place, don't eat a GCD, and you barely need to think about it.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Just wait until the initial brunt of your opener is over and turn tank stance on lmfao. The MT will have a permanent lead on you, and you'll be in second place. You do not need enmity combos for fights that want the OT to be in second place like E4S during phase 2. Stop asking for something you will never use, nor need, to come back. And you know what, to pour more fuel on the fire:

You did not stance-dance in Stormblood. That went completely out of the window in everything but ultimate, and even then, your usage of tank-stance was very limited. You should never have needed to use more than one enmity combo while tanking during Stormblood, and that's the end of it. They weren't really an issue, and it boiled down to SE making tank stance desirable or removing it. So they did the latter and took the worthless enmity combos with them. You have the tools to deal with 'aggro issues' right now. And even if the MT in your 8-man is bad and you're gaining on them with stance on you could just ... turn stance off or shirk? Both of these will leave you in second place, don't eat a GCD, and you barely need to think about it.

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BLMs from Stormblood didn't know what Diversion OR Lucid Dreaming was(the things that DPS are supposed to to prevent tanks from using enmity back in Stormblood) and expected the tank to stay in tank stance(sounds like Yoshi-P now that I think about it), while performing optimally. and if the tank was not in tank stance, the BLM WOULD rip threat off of the tank if the tank didn't use enmity combos, then you have SAMs that knew what diversion was, but couldn't get the Third Eye proc for enmity dumping with Merciful Eyes.

The solution to those 2 problems that required a lot more work was, nerf MP Refresh on Umbral Ice so that BLM would actually use Lucid Dreaming, and a weaponskill combo inbetween Hakaze and Yukikaze to enable Third Eye procs without Third Eye, and the Third Eye proc would make the effects more pronounced if you had that buff active, and this would help sovle enmity issues in the long term.

But the devs went with the toggle solution for tanks which only solved the problem in the short term, but long term made the problem worse, and I don't think the devs realize or even care at this point...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

BLMs from Stormblood didn't know what Diversion OR Lucid Dreaming was(the things that DPS are supposed to to prevent tanks from using enmity back in Stormblood) and expected the tank to stay in tank stance(sounds like Yoshi-P now that I think about it), while performing optimally. and if the tank was not in tank stance, the BLM WOULD rip threat off of the tank if the tank didn't use enmity combos, then you have SAMs that knew what diversion was, but couldn't get the Third Eye proc for enmity dumping with Merciful Eyes.

The solution to those 2 problems that required a lot more work was, nerf MP Refresh on Umbral Ice so that BLM would actually use Lucid Dreaming, and a weaponskill combo inbetween Hakaze and Yukikaze to enable Third Eye procs without Third Eye, and the Third Eye proc would make the effects more pronounced if you had that buff active, and this would help sovle enmity issues in the long term.

But the devs went with the toggle solution for tanks which only solved the problem in the short term, but long term made the problem worse, and I don't think the devs realize or even care at this point...

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Probably because your suggestion is pointless?
Enmity combos never added anything to gameplay in a meaningful way.
You can literally just wait about 30 seconds with your stance off, then turn it on and be second in enmity such that if the MT dies, you immediately get agro.
Let alone they changed provoke so it puts you at the top of the list + 2k enmity.

The notion that enmity combos are needed is simply illogical. They don't do anything better than the current system does.
Let alone that if an enmity combo is a DPS loss, Tanks will simply ignore it entirely and just rely on using provoke to steal agro if needed or rely on shirk.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Probably because your suggestion is pointless?
Enmity combos never added anything to gameplay in a meaningful way.
You can literally just wait about 30 seconds with your stance off, then turn it on and be second in enmity such that if the MT dies, you immediately get agro.
Let alone they changed provoke so it puts you at the top of the list + 2k enmity.

The notion that enmity combos are needed is simply illogical. They don't do anything better than the current system does.
Let alone that if an enmity combo is a DPS loss, Tanks will simply ignore it entirely and just rely on using provoke to steal agro if needed or rely on shirk.

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As a tank, I shouldn't be needing to rely on a Shirk macro or the co-tank to wait to turn on tank stance so that they can be second on enmity list in case I die for some reason that was well beyond my control, and waiting the co-tank hitting provoke AFTER I DIE FOLLOWED BY BY AT LEAST 1 DPS DROPPING LIKE A FLY(the death usually a slow reacting healer of some kind, though mostly server ticks from what I can tell), and if the devs needs to put in a tutorial on how to use Provoke, Shirk, and Tank stances, followed by a tutorial about enmity combos when you join a party(that people are going to ignore by the way because of course they can and they also don't read tooltips)even though enmity combos are no longer in the game(probably forever until the servers shut down)and people still complain, then devs should just focus on making a better tutorial system that is based on the class/job you picked to replace Mentor system(ever since the progression skip boosts were implemented and can easily be abused so long as people meet the requirements to become a battle mentor), the Novice Network, AND the Hall of the Novice.

And how to fix enmity combo being DPS loss is just make it generate the same amount of resources as your main DPS combo, buff the main DPS combo to have effects that benefit you from main tanking(using DRK as an example; Syphon Strike restores HP and MP with Souleater Restoring HP and generating blood gauge, with Spinning Slash restoring MP and generating enmity and Power Slash generating both enmity and blood gauge).

It's not that hard to come up with a solution once the damage is already done, but it's also as easy ignoring potential fixes to a system that is mostly based on player issues, skill/ability/trait issues, or both(see BLM and SAM) and it's just as easy to strip enmity management to just a toggle for ALL TANKS just because people don't like playing tanks. So far only GNB and PLD feel like they were designed with the enmity toggle in mind this expansion, whereas WAR and DRK were not...

And if you think enmity combos aren't needed for at least 1 tank, let alone 2, then I think melee positionals are no longer need, are an outdated system that no longer fits with the games(which if people actually agree on melee positionals need to go then FFXIV is going to lose a lot of it's playerbase and the people argued against enmity combos are going to reluctantly be all for bringing back enmity combos and melee positionals to comeback and I actually do want melee positionals to stay but who knows at this point), along with the current consumable items system(though this argument is more legitimate because consumable items share a recast for some unknown reason), and Limit Break needs to go because of hard it is to use in group content(WHY IS THIS STILL LOCKED TO BEING IN A PARTY AND SHARED BY THE REST OF THE PARTY?! THIS IS EVEN MORE ILLOGICAL THEN PEOPLE ARGUING AGAINST ENMITY COMBOS!!!)

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

snipped for character cap

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If in any content the MT is getting killed in the first 30 seconds, then that is an issue with skill, not an issue with gameplay mechanics.
Again, enmity combos don't add anything to the game in anyway outside of being fluff.

Am I MT? Enmity combo because it gives me the exact same thing.
Am I OT? Enmity combo after my other combo...even though this is the exact same thing as turning tank stance on.

You're literally complaining that you'd like to have a 4,5,6 combo instead of doing 1,2,3 and turning your tank stance on after.
Your solution is simply creating additional buttons for the sake of it, not because it legitimately improves gameplay in anyway.

Melee positionals add gameplay because they also reward proper positioning.
Enmity combos don't reward anything to you.
All they do is add fluff for the sake of it, which is why they were done away with and why many MMOs don't even bother with such a thing.

Let alone your suggestion makes it so that if the OT is not MTing, then they are suffering a significant DPS loss, which means more tuning has to be done so that the OT isn't punished for not MTing and using the main enemity generator.

You're saying its illogical but your solutions only serve to create problems that have already been solved.