Do you think henchmen/mooks who recognize the WoL but attack anyway are silly?

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

If this was true dark fantasy, they would have succeeded, or the bad things would have adversely affected us and our allies the same way as it did our enemies.

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Dark fantasy does not mean unhappy end. That's just an unhappy end. It's the universe. Like Berserk. Guts is still struggling, all things considered. Are you going to say Berserk is not dark fantasy because some people managed to live? And if you haven't read Berserk, then oh well. But it's my counter to your argument.

XIV is colorful on the surface only, until you get to the Ul'dah child slave plots and literally every Calamity. Eorzea isn't a fantasy wonderland. Fantasy, yes. But at any moment you could contract the Green Rot, get murked by a voidsent, or get got because the government turned a blind eye over injustice.

And don't get me STARTED on Sastasha. Hooo boy.

I also recommend a reading of the lore books. Because this world is honestly Hell. (t-thanks ascians)

The world itself is more realistic than most fantasy settings. Still, the idea is for the PC to be an escapist character - an ideal hero in a flawed world.

The existence of Bad Things™ that may or may not also exist in real life doesn't mean it isn't a heroic fantasy. The heroes still win against all odds, only dying in noble sacrifices. The villains antagonists are still trying to do things that would be considered evil by most standards, and they all eventually get their comeuppance.

The idea is for the game to be an escapist fantasy, where you're an ultra-powerful unstoppable badass who eats gods (tulpas) for breakfast and is the closest thing the world has to a paragon of virtue. Dark fantasy appeals to a more limited audience, since most people aren't into Misery Simulators.

Just my two cents. Feel free to agree to disagree!

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Originally Posted by Cilia

and they all eventually get their comeuppance.

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Lolorito would like a word with you. I mean, sure, they say he was just playing 4-D assassination chess, and so he wasn't really evil, but if that were the case he could have stopped the ruse immediately upon Teledji's death.

And all those dead lesser scions that die in the Waking Sands ambush in 2.0 would also like a word. No noble sacrifices there, just a lotta dead folks who were killed until they died from it. /winks in Hot Shots Part Deux

Not too mention all the allusions to rape and sexual slavery that are pitched on you directly through the MSQ. I would say that FFXIV is dark fantasy bottled and sold as heroic fantasy. They hook you with the flamboyant heroic visuals, but then keep you with the villains that do things like, "Yeah so, me and my associates made God real. Turns out it was a horrible idea, and almost everyone we knew and loved died or turned against us as a result."

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Originally Posted by KylePearlsand

And you're forgetting there was a man practically fused to the new Ultimate Weapon who screams out when it is activated (Estinien Echo in Shadowbringers) and the fact that several people were placed in the machine that created Fordola and Zenos' resonance. Only Krile survived as far as I'm aware.

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I dont think its that Krile "survived", i think its that her purpose was different from the others. My memory of this is that she was set up as the template(they were copying her echo to fordola/etc), the red shirts in the other pods were there to provide the energy to transfer over following her pattern, and then the test subject would have gotten the result. The garleans(at least the ones doing this experiment) didnt seem to know there were different types and strengths of echo, so using Krile as the template ends up not working out super well for Fordola.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I would say that FFXIV is dark fantasy bottled and sold as heroic fantasy.

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This is pretty solid, yeah!

The Flood of Light is as apocalyptic and end of the world as it gets, but oooh shiny.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I mean, you aren't immortal. There are a few NPCs that can give you a run for your money.
You aren't some unstoppable force, for the vast majority of tasks you've undertaken you've had 3 to 7 of your friends join you for help. The game has been rather specific about pointing that out.

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Thats mostly just in the english version. A lot of cases dont even make sense with a group. (And even if we somehow truly beat everything with others that does not make us weak either.) And lets not forget that a certain someone from Shadowbringer that beat us was defeated later by us solo too.

Yes we are not immortal but I still would want to know the few NPCs that could truly give us a run for the money. I mean there are some that will be near us and sometimes we get beaten because plot demands it but I know of no henchmen that would be near that which is what the OP talks about.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

There's also this gap between the MSQ and the Class/Job quests were certain intelligent bad guys, like the leader of the Bibliothecs, who probably should know who you are, but attack you anyways.

The only time I see when they do run, is during the Doman Adventurer Guild with that family of lalafells. Every other time it seems to be, 'it's the Eikonslayer! Attack!' Does anyone remember any other times that this happens?

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For random bandits and stuff I just assume they don't recognize us, it isn't like there are Eorzean TVs that we appear on all the time.

For people who do know who we are, they probably think the stories about us are massively exaggerated. I mean, it is pretty implausible that one person has done all that ;)

Also, some people are probably just overconfident idiots.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I think it's more like they like to lampshade that in many, many cases, the WoL does it alone. Like the Susano quest where you're clearly the only one there to fight him and both Alisaie and Lyse say exactly that, but the DF says "uhhh yeah they were there all along don't think about it", or when you fight Bismark and there's clearly nobody there afterwards, it's like that with the vast majority of bosses.

Basically it's not a good idea to say random mooks challenging WoL makes sense because it's thought that WoL does it as part of a party, because the story pretty much always gives WoL sole credit anyway.

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They don't say exactly that though. They literally clear a path out of Susano's chamber and ask you if can fetch any of your adventurer friends that might be nearby, on say a far-east fishing trip, to help you out. Yes, it's handled in a rather tongue-in-cheek manner, but the writers poking a bit of fun at themselves for stretching plausibility from time to time is a far cry from actually being a confirmation that you're solo all the time.

Nobody is the cutscenes afterwards because, I suspect, the engine can't easily do it. Your "adventurer friends" do show up in cutscenes when they're actually physically there in the same instance as you. The Main Scenario Castrums for example, they clearly show 7 other people with you when you run them, but you're solo if you watch them again when you're alone in the Inn room.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Thats mostly just in the english version.

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It's interesting that the German version is different, but it's not like it's more canon than the English version.

Just pointing out that Lolorito is neither villainous nor antagonistic. He's selfish and greedy, but his actions are consistently geared toward preserving Ul'dah's status quo because it makes him wealthy. Spoiler alert, the debacle of 2.55 was mostly Teledji Adeledji's doing; Lolorito caught wind of it and tried to mitigate the damage, but Ilberd went loose cannon at the critical moment to pursue his vendetta against Raubahn. He never got "comeuppance" per sé, but that's because he never really did anything villainous - and he still tried to make up for it by giving Adeledji's wealth and half of his personal fortune to the Sultanate, giving Nanamo a bit of a leash on the Syndicate.

Not to mention how he's the only known person who tried to peacefully resolve the Meteor crisis in 1.x through his merchant network, allowed the Scions to use the EATC office in Kugane as their base of operations for the Doman campaign, and actually does care about someone besides himself - the Kugane Castle quest shows he has a soft spot for his niece. Lolorito may be a ruthless business tycoon, but he is not villainous in the slightest (beyond his desire to maintain Ul'dah's status quo for the sake of building his wealth).

The presence of real crime and fantasy horror elements do not make the story dark fantasy. Despite those, it's far too optimistic in tone - the protagonists are still, well, heroic by most means of the word, and while they are put through the paces persevere and actually do make the world a better place. If this were dark fantasy things like saving Estinien from Nidhogg's possession or rallying Norvrandt to get us up Mt. Gulg would have been far more difficult if not impossible - and certain cross-sections of the fanbase wouldn't be complaining about how it's not "realistically gritty" enough for their taste. (You'd get the opposite complaints, actually.)

Again, Eorzean Gundam vs. Garlean Evangelion. "Gritty realism" where the PC is shivved in an Ishgardian alley and freezes to death in the gutter is not going to happen; it defeats the raison d'etre of the PC.

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They don't say exactly that though. They literally clear a path out of Susano's chamber and ask you if can fetch any of your adventurer friends that might be nearby, on say a far-east fishing trip, to help you out. Yes, it's handled in a rather tongue-in-cheek manner, but the writers poking a bit of fun at themselves for stretching plausibility from time to time is a far cry from actually being a confirmation that you're solo all the time.

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I don't think you're remembering it correctly. If anything the tongue-in-cheek part of it is calling to attention just how absurd and clearly-not-the-case having any backup is.

https://i.imgur.com/zOosdIu.png

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Implies that Evangelion isn't dark

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Lolorito was entirely villainous, and what ensued afterwards was a ham fisted rewrite to cop-out on killing the sultana. And clearly, what happened with Ilberd being a loose cannon only happened after they imprisoned Raubahn and attempted to kill the Scions as a whole. The man literally pointed at the Scions and yelled, "The Scions have conspired to commit regicide!" and ordered men under his pay to pursue and kill.

I wouldn't call the story optimistic in tone either. Sure, the hero mostly triumphs, but the tone of the story is deeply existential and filled with horror. It comes in all flavors and subtly at times, too. We get body horror with dragon blood imbibing, hypertuned magitek alteration, sineater transformation, voidsent corruption, and primal enthrallment that all lead to body horror. We get philosophical horror in Gaius's elevator speech, the archbishop's 1000 year theocratic lie, Zenos reasoning that man is greatest of the animals for his ability to choose to be violent rather than being violent through instinct, and where we are now, against primordial beings who forced a God they built through ritual sacrifice of their own people onto their own people.
It's not just elements of horror that are present. It's the whole kit and kaboodle, and it's only mitigated by the gameplay loop, and the fact that most people just wanna have a good time and come to the serious atmosphere with, "long hair, don't care" attitudes.

The horrors mankind can inflict on one another is a theme of this game. This is reflected in the, "heroes" who are mostly a group of self-righteous foreigners who believe they are doing what is best for everyone by attempting and usually succeeding to enact their wills onto the leaders of the city-states. When diplomacy falls through they turn to force of arms, and their battle prowess is usually how they get a foot in the door with the city-state leaders in the first place. The only thing separating them from the villains is that they don't seek domination, merely subversion.

And to your bit on "Eorzean Gundam vs. Garlean Evangelion." It's more like Eorzean Xenogears vs. Garlean Evangelion from my perspective. Then there's the fact that Evangelion is dark sci-fi. Incredibly brutally dark sci-fi. Not exactly something you should bring up to aid your idea. "Gritty realism" is also not always a part of dark fantasy, nor is it requisite.