Come up with ideas to fix Ranged Physical Dps please.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

im pretty sure bard and dancer have more potential ahead more than mch because of rdps

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Thanks to dancer padding the crap out of everything in 5.0, FF Logs reworked their calculations to include DPS granted from buffs. So, now we can more easily see exactly what impact those buffs have.

Even with their buffs, BRD and DNC do less total DPS than MCH. I don't see a problem with this in particular because MCH has the least utility.

What I do have a problem with - DNC has more utility than BRD, but still does more DPS than BRD. Even if a group doesn't need DNC's utility, it's still the better option to bring just for the DPS it brings - combining both direct and through buffs.

DNC will be the top ranged at high percentiles when all is said and done, groups just mostly aren't doing the requisite damage/buff optimization yet. In that sense, the DNC vs. MCH balance is pretty healthy, as DNC only pulls ahead when you really maximize it as a group.

The ranged role as a whole, 100% ought to do less damage than the other roles. However, it does not need to do a huge amount less. 3-5% or so is probably about where you want it, close enough for the main stat buff to be a clear gain, but far enough that you wouldn't take double ranged (if they were equal to other roles, you always would because max mobility). We'll see where the numbers shake out by weeks 6, 8, 10, but early on it looks to mainly be a matter of the best casters being too strong moreso than the best ranged being too far behind.

Bard, of course, is in a no-mans land where it's always worse than either DNC or MCH in pretty much any single target scenario. And SE badly needs to re-evaluate their ranged job design; having no concerns for movement or positioning should be counterbalanced by having more rotational concerns - more on the fly decisions, a little more complexity, more planning etc. This was at least somewhat the case in Stormblood but for 5.0 they purged the majority of decision points across all dps jobs, and ranged has suffered extra badly for it.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

maybe, just maybe bowmage was so despised not because it added constraints to the class but because it was fundamentally tacked on

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No. No matter how well they would have fit casting within Bards kit it still would have been despised simply on the basis that the entire draw of the job for many players- it's free movement- was reduced.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

No. No matter how well they would have fit casting within Bards kit it still would have been despised simply on the basis that the entire draw of the job for many players- it's free movement- was reduced.

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and your prove of that is exactly what ?

Bard: Apex arrow cost and cap changed to 10/50

Dancer: Espirit Gauge extended to 120.

Machinist: Flamethrower is no longer a channeled skill, functioning as the AoE equivalent to Air Anchor. Deals X potency in the area with a Y potency DoT, generates 20 Battery, shares CD with Air Anchor.

New Ranged Weaponskill Type - "Velocity"
Weaponskills in this category have differing effects based on proximity. Weaponskills in this category have a separate cooldown.
Effect: Creates a homing projectile that changes effect based on how far it travels.

Possible Examples

Machinist
Missile Salvo
Weaponskill - Velocity
Recast: 40s
Effect: Creates a missile that grants Battery Gauge and deals X potency upon contact with target enemy. Gains less battery and deals more potency the farther it travels.

Bard
Harmonic Arrow
Weaponskill - Velocity
Recast: 40s
Effect: Creates an arrow that travels towards target enemy and deals x potency. Grants Soul Voice and extends the current Song's duration upon impacting an enemy. Grants less Soul Voice and more Song Duration the further it travels.

Dancer
Bladed Step
Weaponskill - Velocity
Recast: 40
Effect: Create an aetherial ring that travels towards target enemy and deals x potency. Grants Espirit and extends the duration of your benefical buffs on you and your dance partner. Grants more Espirit and less duration as it travels farther.

No need to be that ambitious ^^;;

I think they probably need to give Bard maybe 4-5%, and give the other two ranged 1-2%, ideally aiming the Bard changes in a way that helps them deal with downtime better. Simple potency tweaks would do fine for DNC/MCH; not that they don't have room for design improvement, but it's not causing balance issues the way that Bard's downtime problem is.

For Bard, a second charge on EA would be a start, not a large buff (maybe a percent at best) but it does a lot of desirable things (makes job less punishing / stressful for newbies, creates some decision space, adds compensation for downtime).

After that, I feel like buffing Raging Strikes to 20% (worth probably 3-3.5% overall) would be a quality change. It wouldn't assist with every downtime (the worst cases are already ones where a phase is 2:50 long or something) but it'd help with some, while increasing the payoff for better gameplay in a positive/rewarding (rather than a punishing) manner.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Thanks to dancer padding the crap out of everything in 5.0, FF Logs reworked their calculations to include DPS granted from buffs. So, now we can more easily see exactly what impact those buffs have.

Even with their buffs, BRD and DNC do less total DPS than MCH. I don't see a problem with this in particular because MCH has the least utility.

What I do have a problem with - DNC has more utility than BRD, but still does more DPS than BRD. Even if a group doesn't need DNC's utility, it's still the better option to bring just for the DPS it brings - combining both direct and through buffs.

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i know logs show rdps, what i mean is as average IL goes up so does percentage buff, which mean dancer and BRD is having more potential in higher level gameplay and higher IL than mch

I kinda like the idea of proximity based attacks, kinda like positionals for Ranged only a little less finnicky. But it would have to be something as simple as 20-50 extra potency if over 5 yalms away.

But the reason ranged damage is penalised is due to having 100% uptime in every fight. It can only really get more damage by having that damage dependant on managing uptime. As ranged don't have to do anything for to acheive that, there's only one place for this extra damage to go. Buffs.
But then you get into the issues of stacking of buffs and over optimisation of buff windows.

What they could do is increase BRD and DNC party buffs by just a couple percent, but prevent them from stacking.
Or give them an additional minor buff that doesn't stack.

I posted this idea for MCH a few days ago:
Change Wildfire from 200 potency per weaponskill used, to:
150 potency per weaponskill used, plus 20 potency per weaponskill/spell used by party members.
Turns part of Wildfire into an indirect party buff, that is dependent on party uptime, but still scales off of your stats.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I kinda like the idea of proximity based attacks, kinda like positionals for Ranged only a little less finnicky. But it would have to be something as simple as 20-50 extra potency if over 5 yalms away.

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Primarily, I wanted to avoid the same "It must be this" and instead have them give a little more control over their resource generation. That's primarily from a Mach PoV - I'd like if I could get my first robot out during the first boom of buffs, so having something that can both be +30 Battery (but as low as +10) for that opening salvo would be nice, as well as something you could Reassemble from long distance for a huge potency spike when needed.

The other jobs were just things that 'sounded neat', but I wouldn't have as much context for whether or not they'd be overtly positive.

Rather than have a fixed positional requirement, I'd want them to offer some boon that you tailor around what you need.

Proximity based damage is bad design, anyone that did raid with a basic level knows that if you dont have a mechanic to do, you are stacked behind the boss and when you're not, you're getting yelled at by the healers.