Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

I liked ARR’s dungeon pace. TWO dungeons per patch (one MSQ, one optional). They were still as immersive as the later ones mentioned earlier in this thread.

As far as optional parts to the dungeons, OF COURSE they are going to be skipped over by most people. The DUNGEON DROPS are generally skipped over by most people, let alone crafting gear that needs to be repaired or relic bits once one’s done with that relic. Make optional portions of the dungeon THAT DROP TOMESTONES and people will start to do them. Tomestones are the main reason people run the things after their first visit, after all. Right now, dungeon drops generally serve to pay retainers, and that’s all.

I for one would love to see a dungeon run give Tomestones per chest, and a few extra on the side path (enough that visiting it will give you an additional 15% of the tomestones). Give everyone in the dungeon a job-usable drop as an auto reward for beating the final boss, subject to the Unique tags on the gear. If and only if they have every single piece of that gear set, then start giving out randomly selected pieces usable by other jobs.

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I'm wondering what the full extent of that would look like under optimized practice, though? Does that just turn into players each splitting up into n groups, running into their respective side-paths, looting, and retreating into an AoE gather? I could imagine the novelty if we could still lock out mobs like back in Wanderer's Palace spams, but, again, while we can certainly make people actually do side-paths (at least those who won't cap off just the daily roulette bonus alone), what is that gameplay actually going to look like? Something new, different, is usually but not necessarily better, and not back-tracking does at least have some aesthetic advantages.

Just a bit more food for thought: Can we reward tomes for using (or preparing) different options? Let's say in a given dungeon we have to get past a chasm. We can do this via swinging across, which requires us a rope, or by lowering the drawbridge, which in old Wanderer's Palace fashion, requires lubricant on the lever assembly. There's a special section of your Key Items that is just for dungeon stuff. The more the party has collected while you've been there, the more tomes you get when you complete, quit out, or maybe even are kicked out of a dungeon. In that way, it works like the chests, but at least it doesn't always look like a chest, for a bit more variance and hopefully engagement.

Considering they have chosen to lessen the amount of dungeons made per patch, I do not think it's realistic to expect more complex dungeon designs unless it comes at the cost of normal MSQ dungeons, which might be problematic for some. I also think the devs are content with how dungeons are used in this game, and its current and future design would only be to ensure the continuation of its current usage, unless they see a benefit to change the status quo.

And on a personal note, I don't care for optional enemies/rooms regardless of the reward. I want to be forced to full clear the dungeon, regardless of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by linay

Considering they have chosen to lessen the amount of dungeons made per patch, I do not think it's realistic to expect more complex dungeon designs unless it comes at the cost of normal MSQ dungeons, which might be problematic for some. I also think the devs are content with how dungeons are used in this game, and its current and future design would only be to ensure the continuation of its current usage, unless they see a benefit to change the status quo.

And on a personal note, I don't care for optional enemies/rooms regardless of the reward. I want to be forced to full clear the dungeon, regardless of difficulty.

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Given that more complex dungeons would be bordering on experimental or otherwise non-standard content, doesn't that fit right in line with what we're supposed to be getting at the expense of the standard dungeoning (hallway speedrun) experience?

As for the latter point, that's fair, and I'm probably more on your side in that regard, if only due to not particularly caring to backtrack (except in particular unique designs) preferring not to have to decide upon a route (again in most circumstances) and how that it means that more of the development time is spent on things we see every time, instead of allowing for potential waste (though there are some exceptions where the rare variant is more noticeable than that little extra detail in the main product, so that has exceptions as well).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Given that more complex dungeons would be bordering on experimental or otherwise non-standard content, doesn't that fit right in line with what we're supposed to be getting at the expense of the standard dungeoning (hallway speedrun) experience?

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That's why I'm not dismissing it entirely. I just think there will indeed be a cost somewhere, and the likelihood would be normal MSQ dungeons. And now that they're having one dungeon per patch, it is indeed the ideal time to experiment with dungeon.

But that's where my second point comes in: that the devs are likely content with how dungeons are used currently and would likely rather experiment with other types of content.

I don't understand the people who say they want optional/non-linear stuff in the dungeons because they are boring but also say they will just do the optional stuff if it grants them (in their opinion) high rewards as compensation for doing the extra stuff. So do they want more variety to make dungeons less boring/linear or just an easy way to get more rewards for very little more "effort"/time? Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

I would like to see the return of massive dungeons like old MMOs and early WoW had, but done in a way modern players could handle.

Take say... a massive 50-100 "room" dungeon and fill it some patrols and tougher enemies in spots.
- Tune everything to be a fight that can't be chain pulled but has to be handled where it is.
- Give every fight a 'reward' based on the time to finish it.

3 bosses of a current expert = 90 tomes.

So in this new design... every 'tougher' enemy is 10 tomes, and all the smaller fights between them are '1 tome per enemy taken out' - with an average of 20 enemies in between each.

Players could then progress in any direction desired, skip or take on what they desired, and maybe even each member of a group could have one 'floating save point' that they set during the run and they group can 'click to go to' in order to take a different path... and another one that they set that lasts for a week - allowing people to enter the 'dungeon' at different spots.

Now give that dungeon 5 'entry gates'...

And make about 10% of the 'filler mobs' patrols that can wander the whole map but won't move into the space of an ongoing 'tougher fight' once it's "gate" is up... and make half the tougher fight mobs and half the stationary mobs pull from a random encounter table when players get withing 'loading range' of them...

Finally put a timer on it that's 2x longer than a current dungeon.

- Obviously that's a radical departure from anything we have currently...

The idea would be a dungeon so large you'd never do it all in one run... And even doing a second run would lead to a slightly different dungeon...
- yet you could farm out all your tokens in there.

And over time if they made the map right, they could have wings swap in and out randomly...

To me... that'd be like our 'Deep Dungeons' only done more interestingly...

I don't expect to ever see it...

It's basically a variation on an old school 1970s era table-top RPG dungeon...

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

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Saddly, it's not. Not for most people in this community at least.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

I don't understand the people who say they want optional/non-linear stuff in the dungeons because they are boring but also say they will just do the optional stuff if it grants them (in their opinion) high rewards as compensation for doing the extra stuff. So do they want more variety to make dungeons less boring/linear or just an easy way to get more rewards for very little more "effort"/time? Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

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Depends what we're talking about.

Just adding branching paths? That requires no additional reward. Some people will always take the "meta" route for faster clears, others wont care. I'd assume each branch gives the same rewards and it's just a matter of taking the route you want to break up monotony.

If we're talking puzzles, entirely optional enemies, bosses, and treasure chests? Things that take much more time? That requires additional rewards, because otherwise what's the actual point in doing it? Can do it just for fun, sure, but there are plenty of other things I can do "just for fun" that also have rewards. I'll just do those instead and continue to ignore dungeons.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would be against additional rewards in dungeons... More reason to do them beyond the dull daily 90 tomestones isn't a bad thing, IMO. I'd also say it's perhaps a better means to reward things like Minions and music scrolls, than the existing RNG on final boss.

My favorite dungeon crawling happened to be wow's burning crusade heroics. Wildstar's to a lesser extent. Single packs, tactical chain cc, and dangerous mob mechanics to watch for.

I think most people these days see that as unneeded resistance instead of fun, though, despite my mechanical engagement bliss.

I would like to see lots of rewarding side content - alternate bosses or boss modes, and paths. The gotcha for pubs is not everyone is going to want to do the side stuff (especially if it's a repeat visit). It then becomes another point of party fracture as everyone has their own idea on just getting through it vs full clearing it.

You'd need a way to ensure players enjoy the mechanics and side content of dungeons enough to want to do it - and I'm just not sure how that can be accomplished anymore.

Maybe I'm just cynical?

WoW's got enough of a history to be a good example of why we don't have long, branching dungeon in modern MMOs.

Maraudon.

Temple of Atal'Hakkar (aka Sunken Temple).

Blackrock Depths.

It was very difficult to get a group of players able to stay the entire run and even harder to find replacements when someone had to leave. The number of completed runs compared to runs started was very low as a result, not because of difficulty but because of time.

The same dungeons are also a good example of why dungeons end up with linear routes instead of branching paths. Too many players would get lost and confused, unable to remember how to get to the next boss. I spent a lot of time in Sunken Temple because I knew how to navigate the place without getting lost (and knew the statue order for the summoned boss) so others were always asking me to run it with them. Groups that didn't have someone who knew how to get around in there inevitably fell apart, which became a source of frustration and discontent.

The Thousand Maws of Toto-rak here would be a similar example. I've heard nothing but horror stories and hate for the 1.0 version because of the maze it was. Even now players continue to complain about how long the dungeon takes to finish.

I can understand why the makers of modern MMOs aren't wasting development resources on that type of content, as much fun as I personally fine it. They want to be making content that a greater portion of the player base would enjoy.

Before you say "but Ultimate is only getting done by 1% of the player base", Ultimate is also primarily put together from reused assets and generates considerable publicity within the gaming community due to the difficulty. Long branching dungeons wouldn't.