If you had to remake your job from scratch...

DRK would be a DPS (yes, this is how much I have come to dislike tanking with this expansion) :P

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Originally Posted by purgatori

DRK would be a DPS (yes, this is how much I have come to dislike tanking with this expansion) :P

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In fairness, we do need a DPS that swings a big weapon. We lost big axes and then big swords.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

In fairness, we do need a DPS that swings a big weapon. We lost big axes and then big swords.

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Its times like these -- no, that's bull; it's been since the very beginning -- that I wish Roles weren't quite so rigidly defined. I'd love for Marauder to have been able to go the dual-weilding Berserker route instead, or for Dark Knight to have been built upon a Templar who could instead go into a tactical front-line DPS in the form of Sword Saint, etc., etc.

I have levelled SCH, WHM, BRD, DRK, RDM & DRG to 80 so far, and I'd leave all of them exactly as they are. They're fun. Can't comment on SMN as I haven't played it since HW

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Its times like these -- no, that's bull; it's been since the very beginning -- that I wish Roles weren't quite so rigidly defined. I'd love for Marauder to have been able to go the dual-weilding Berserker route instead, or for Dark Knight to have been built upon a Templar who could instead go into a tactical front-line DPS in the form of Sword Saint, etc., etc.

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It probably creates nightmare problems in terms of balance, but I always thought the approach SWtOR took with its 'disciplines' was pretty neat. All the classes offered at least one DPS spec (mostly because DPS was the best-optimised role for advancing through levelling content), but most of these also had either a healing or tanking spec as well.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

It probably creates nightmare problems in terms of balance, but I always thought the approach SWtOR took with its 'disciplines' was pretty neat. All the classes offered at least one DPS spec (mostly because DPS was the best-optimised role for advancing through levelling content), but most of these also had either a healing or tanking spec as well.

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The only hurdle with this (aside from being too much work to balance) is that it's not something that applies to all jobs. The tanks and a handful of other jobs could benefit from this, but jobs like DRG, BLM, WHM, technically NIN (in before Utsusemi tanking), MNK and the physical ranged DPS have little or nothing to gain from such a system. While this isn't a big deal, the devs seem to favor all-or-nothing as their approach when they add things.

That said, here's my breakdown:

PLD - Tank (what we currently have) and DPS (the Holy Sword/All Swordskills we saw in the Ivalice raids) specialization
WAR - Tank (what we currently have) and DPS (built entirely around swapping between 2 stances to maintain different buffs through combo chains done in each stance)
DRK - Tank (see above) and DPS (MP minigame and possibly Dark Arts)
GNB - Tank and DPS (no idea here)
DRG - N/A
MNK - N/A
SAM - N/A
NIN - N/Aseriously, fuck Utsusemi tanking
BRD - N/A
MCH - N/A
DNC - N/A
WHM - N/A
SCH - Healer and DPS (greater emphasis on DoTs?)
AST - Healer and DPS (reliant on card debuffs placed on mobs?)
BLM - N/A
SMN - N/A
RDM - Caster DPS (what we have now) and Melee DPS (because this shouldn't surprise anyone)

I would keep DNC mostly as it is. However I would change some things.

I would make Fan Dance 1 upgrade into Fan Dance 3.
Make Saber Dance oGCD, or make it have a chance of procing feathers if I left it on the GCD.
I would make each step of your dances pulse out a 20-50 potency AoE when you hit them.
I would also make it's AoEs ranged abilities so you didn't need to stand in the middle of a mob trying to see floor AoEs through your flashy animations lol.
Improvisation would either not require people to get full Esprit or would only require 1 person to get full Esprit.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The only hurdle with this (aside from being too much work to balance) is that it's not something that applies to all jobs. The tanks and a handful of other jobs could benefit from this, but jobs like DRG, BLM, WHM, technically NIN (in before Utsusemi tanking), MNK and the physical ranged DPS have little or nothing to gain from such a system. While this isn't a big deal, the devs seem to favor all-or-nothing as their approach when they add things.

That said, here's my breakdown:

PLD - Tank (what we currently have) and DPS (the Holy Sword/All Swordskills we saw in the Ivalice raids) specialization
WAR - Tank (what we currently have) and DPS (built entirely around swapping between 2 stances to maintain different buffs through combo chains done in each stance)
DRK - Tank (see above) and DPS (MP minigame and possibly Dark Arts)
GNB - Tank and DPS (no idea here)
DRG - N/A
MNK - N/A
SAM - N/A
NIN - N/Aseriously, fuck Utsusemi tanking
BRD - N/A
MCH - N/A
DNC - N/A
WHM - N/A
SCH - Healer and DPS (greater emphasis on DoTs?)
AST - Healer and DPS (reliant on card debuffs placed on mobs?)
BLM - N/A
SMN - N/A
RDM - Caster DPS (what we have now) and Melee DPS (because this shouldn't surprise anyone)

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My own pipedream:

• Cross-classing is back, but solely via traits. Every class now has a number of core gameplay-affecting mechanical traits, tailored to the weapon that uses them, which may bring new skills, adapt existing skills somewhat, or just add said useful mechanic. There are no more outright waste options, though some are more situational. Jobs are locked into most of their class traits and their own additional job-based traits, but can still flex around a little bit. Classes may borrow certain job traits as well, so long as the rank in the new class is as high as the rank necessary to get the job trait and the class has also equipped that trait's requisite base class trait or traits, if any.
• Anyone can now technically use any sort of gear, so long as they have enough strength to equip it (which is equal to the strength necessary to move in it at nearly normal speed when not debuffed). Main stats are no longer 4 flavors of Power, but have actual varying effects, meaning that your primary stat balance largely takes the place of secondary stats and gear is now far less exclusive between armor classes. This mostly works as mix of percentile vs. flat effects. For a phyiscal fighter, for instance, Strength reduces the relative weight of objects by a percentage, favoring heavier weapons as to get a larger total haste and damage increase; Dexterity increases how quickly a movement reaches top speed; Dexterity and Intelligence increase the accuracy of attacks against enemies and diminishes their known evasive effects; and Dexterity and Mind also reduce their unknown evasive effects. Etc., etc.
• Now that all jobs can make use of every stat -- up to certain soft caps consequent to their other stats, and so on -- each job is much more flexible in how it is played. A standard Monk will still use Strength above all else (Str > Dex >> Int/Mind), for instance, but a more bursty team-combo-centric Monk might take additional Intelligence, a more supportive Monk might take additional Mind, a saboteur or decoy Monk would take DEX above STR, a survivalist Monk would swap in high VIT and MND or DEX and MND, etc., etc.
• "Character Levels" are back, but as more of a summary value that simply determines your AP (Ability Points). You need not be slain by mice just because you swapped off the weapon type you use for slaying gods to... a weapon basically the same as what you just used. Requirements for duties are now based around throughput stats (how much your gear allows you to put out) and performance checks (what you can actually put out) rather that merely level and item level. Players are expected to multi-level to some extent, but the standard job gameplay is already provided off just leveling that one base class and job.
• Your maximum value in each primary stat based on the balance of stats you use while gaining experience. Experience quite literally goes to your stats and class ranks. Gear has a smaller effect on your total stat values, but may now carry unique skills and effects. Jobs and classes are leveled whenever you have equipped traits from that class or job. (So, yes, technically you can have a higher rank Dragoon than Lancer if you made some sort of Dragon Monk but left (the generally more cross-class useful) Lancer out of all your other classes and jobs.
• Some currently class-less jobs with more separable or fractured kits (such as MCH being separably half focused on just shooting its gun and half focused on mech- and device-summoning) now have base classes. SAM gets Ronin, MCH gets Gunner. AST is still just AST, and DNC is still just DNC, though integrations between each and other jobs have increased.
• The job aspect of any job, therefore, is now devoted to the parts unique to that job. Dragoon's additional ranks and AP, for instance, are spent on specifically Dragon-based traits and techniques. You have, effectively, Weapon-based proficiencies, and auxiliary proficiencies (among which you find such separable things as Ki Mastery and Light & Shadow (Monk), Blood of the Dragon, and Gaze of the Dragon Flights (Dragoon), Advanced Weapons Training and Advanced Device Teleportation (Machinist), etc., etc. Obviously, some jobs synergize more closely with their base classes than others. Monk feels right with fist weapons, though it can still pull off a decent Wushu swordsman or Staff/Spear-wielding Adept, while taking Machinist elements and putting on a Thief/Saboteur isn't quite such a safe-and-ready option as on a gunner, but it's mightily fun, and one can make for an even more deadly art of the dance through a Rogue>Monk subset if one's willing to deal with the far more constrained ranged and much more demanding gameplay.
• Standard job setups are still the norm, especially in PuG play, but classes are now situationally viable even in the highest tiers of play and are likely to be nearly as common as jobs in side-content with very specific needs. Wind-seers (a predominantly CNJ>AST hybrid) and Starcallers (AST>CNJ/THM), for instance, would seem ideal picks for scout vessels in Airship exploration, even if a large vessel more likely to be attacked would probably side with a more combat focused WHM or group-focused core AST, while rogue-like dungeon diving with plenty of interactives and consumables make a wonderful time for Chemists and Thieves, both blatantly hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I would keep DNC mostly as it is. However I would change some things.

I would make Fan Dance 1 upgrade into Fan Dance 3.
Make Saber Dance oGCD, or make it have a chance of procing feathers if I left it on the GCD.
I would make each step of your dances pulse out a 20-50 potency AoE when you hit them.
I would also make it's AoEs ranged abilities so you didn't need to stand in the middle of a mob trying to see floor AoEs through your flashy animations lol.
Improvisation would either not require people to get full Esprit or would only require 1 person to get full Esprit.

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I agree with the changes to improv and the dance step potency would be interesting even if a lil pointless, but saber dance being oGCD would be bad since then you would have no GCD avoid proc overwrites with when you come up to flourish and technical step windows, fan dance 1 upgrading into 3 is a little strange since they function in two different ways currently and the AOE skills in my opinion are more useful when originating from you since you can hit two targets that arent actually close to each other just by standing inbetween them.

This being my first MMO and all, I know how dare I, I have to ask, are any of these suggestions on changes relevant from games with a similar premise to FFXIV?

By that I mean, FFXIV's main appeal is "be anything", you can level any job and play everything. But all of these suggestions about specs and CC and a less rigid higherarcy, seem like they wouldn't work in an MMO where things are designed around that idea. I mean aren't the different jobs just different specs? They could add CC but then they would need to adjust the role skills and fight mechanics. And the loose higherarcy is just another "spec" illusion isn't it.

I could be wrong, but it seems like FFXIV is an MMO that actually gives you some real choice in things, instead of an illusion. And while certain things were possible in FFXI, another game where you could be any job, the way things have changed I don't think people have the patience for auto attacking a mob to death.

That being said, theorycrafting a new version of your preferred job, that fits within FFXIV isnt a bad idea. But I do think some people get lost in the "rule of cool" mentality and try to add too much. There is beauty in simplicity. But I will say, when you see that simplicity everyday, it can get boring. I think that's the main issue.