It would be a bit different if that the spread was, say, only 100 or 200 rdps instead of thousands. And if that bottom class at least had rez or something to make up for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysterior
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11-06-2019, 12:42 AMRisvertasashi
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11-06-2019, 12:45 AMAkiudowhich is true but not the problem, being hyperbolic here for a moment, but just to illustrate a point, if the best dps did 15k dps, the second worst dps did 14k and the absolute worst dps than did 10k dps, would that be fine because "there will allways be a class at the bottom" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysterior
obviously its not as extreme as this, but brd right now is actually about as far below mch as ninja/samurai was below monk last patch, yet these classes acted like the sky was falling, that was with 2 slots generally reserved for melee and melees in general being the strongest role by far, brd is that much behind mch in a role that is very much struggling as a whole and will sooner lose its one slot than get a second one as the dps distribution currently stands -
11-06-2019, 12:47 AMCKNovel
While I'm glad MCH is not in BRD's shadow anymore and finally "worth" filling the ranged spot, man I'm so sorry to all BRD main out there.
We've been in that situation for 2 years on top of having a tiring and annoying rotation. BRD is officially really bad and I don't understand why they nerfed their damage but did nothing about MNK, BLM and just went yolo with SMN?
Ranged overall are the worst jobs. BRD is still outshined by an average melee, it's also a bit the case for the MCH and DNC.
Buff the ranged, now that the SMN is at the top the "Mobility" argument means nothing at all. The bottom DPS should never be that far from the top. -
11-06-2019, 12:54 AMwereotterIt's very likely that the developers thought the song buffs were going to add more rDPS than they have. There's two reasons I can guess as to why this is failing right now. First, it's only been a week and several jobs underwent changes that gave them new rotations. Specifically I'm thinking of red mage, summoner, and ninja, though other jobs were effected too. Seeing as we've seen some of those jobs jump up dramatically either this point is not the problem, and people jumped onto them and figured out the new jobs quickly, or the jobs were overturned. If people are, however, still figuring out their jobs, then it's fair to say that bard's rDPS contribution will increase as player skill increases since the song buffs are tied to the performance of other players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiudo
The other is that the developers over valued the increase in damage the songs bring. Like I stated, they admitted that they were worried about the job balance of the game if they added these effects back, so they nerfed parts of the job in order to add them and meet player demands. And it's entirely possible they messed up and nerfed the job too hard to add them. This wouldn't be the first time they've made this kind of mistake, and I can see that this would be infuriating if you're the one playing the job that got hit.
All that, I wouldn't count bard out entirely for ultimate since there are utility features bard brings to the table that aren't damage related that could be valued depending on the mechanics thrown at you, similar to why people valued Vercure on Red Mages in previous groups. For example, Nature's Minne might prove, depending on mechanics, to be a needed part of the toolkit, especially now that it's stronger on a single target than Mantra, additionally Warden's Pean might have the ability to make certain mechanics easier by preventing a debuff that might otherswise take hold. They can't make bard mandatory by requiring either of these skills, but they can make it so that certain phases of an encounter are easier if you have those tools at your disposal.
Or possibly none of this, and there will need to be more balances to bring the job up to par with its counterparts. But I really do think they're likely to hold off on buffs until they see how the jobs actually are performing after more than just a week or two. I could be wrong, but rarely do they change a job, then change it again so quickly.
Edit: I would also say as a personal opinion, considering machinist has no other utility like the healing buff or esuna, a 500 DPS hit to have those skills in your toolkit seems a reasonable difference. Every bit of utility comes at a cost. -
11-06-2019, 12:56 AMHysteriorYeah but it will always happen. It has always been the case since the game ever existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
- They will do some buffs/nerfs in an upcoming patch
- Then new jobs will be at the top/bottom
- Then they will do some buffs/nerfs in an upcoming patch
- Then new jobs will be at the top/bottom
- Then they will do some buffs/nerfs in an upcoming patch
- Then new jobs will be at the top/bottom
- Then they will do some buffs/nerfs in an upcoming patch
- Then new jobs will be at the top/bottom
Rinse an repeat.
Bard use to be the GotO ranged DPS for quite some time. It will survive at the bottom for a bit and get back up. Don't worry. -
11-06-2019, 01:01 AMRisvertasashiThe "it's only been a week" would hold more weight at the beginning of the expac or tier. Right now, people are geared and experienced, and we already have thousands - in some cases tens of thousands - of patch 5.1 submissions for each job. There might be some slight variation as we get a full 2 weeks, but expecting a major change in the rankings - especially hundreds of DPS worth - is hopelessly optimistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
That said, you're still right. If there is any hope for changes, it needs to be before ultimate opens. Once that does, SE has a policy of no balance changes during progression, so bard will be stuck as is for months. -
11-06-2019, 01:04 AMAkiudonot gonna go into the "well theres still natures minne" argument, don't want to simply ignore it but the track record of the playerbase for the last 5 years or so pretty clearly shows that "non mandatory utility" will pretty much allways fail flat in the face of 300 or so dps, see whitemages having an easier time healing encounters compared to AST, as long as the damage simply wasn't there, and ast could make do, even if with extra effort the community at large shunned whitemage. wardens paen though literally works on nothing in a raid setting right now, and i mean NOTHING, it's less usefull than summoners phoenix is as a healing tool, that one will align correctly at least sometimesQuote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
however, on the "overestimating the strength of the buffs" . the buffs are pretty clearly designed to average out around 1% group dps (sans bard) you got a 1% buff, a 0,75% buff you will keep up for only 2/3 the time of the other buffs and than you got the "a bit stronger than 1% buff, like 1,1% that will get stronger with more gear" , for a 1% buff as it stands to overcome the difference between brd and mch the best groups in the world would need to add another 50.000 raid dps (without bard contribution), pretty sure not even square could think whatever they did to all the classes will raise raid dps by another 50.000 -
11-06-2019, 01:12 AMDogempireYou must be fun at partiesQuote:
Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA
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11-06-2019, 01:15 AMwereotterJobs are taxed for utility even if that utility isn't considered mandatory. Monk just got a nerf to mantra because they decided it should deal as much damage as it does while also having as potent a healing utility skill as it does. Red mage does less damage in every fight even if no one dies, and no one needed to be raised/cured. What you're looking at is a 3% difference at the top level of play, which is a gap that would be difficult to close completely, and again I would say that I'm not sure they should. Machinist should do more damage than a bard because bard has non-damage related utility skills. Bard should be about on par with Dancer who also has these same types of skills with Improvisation and Curing Waltz. And there you're only looking at a 200 DPS difference rather than the 500 DPS, or a DPS difference of 1.3% between the two jobs. Unless DPS checks in a fight at max level play with max level gear are SUPER tight, 1.3% will not make the difference of a job being viable or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiudo
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11-06-2019, 01:45 AMAkiudoyes, every bit of utility comes with a price and all, i even agree with that this is the correct way to handle things, as if it didn't that is the point where one class indeed is clearly superior to another, if two classes where functionally equal , would do exactly the same dps in exactly the same fights, could handle mechanics equally well and all that, than you get the very clear cut question of "do you want the class with or without this extra skill" ? the answer in that case is clear and means one class is indeed simply better, whereas the value of things like natures minne is a lot more debateble.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
that still doesn't change that paen simple doesn't work, there is literally nothing to use it with and even if there were something in ultimate that is the situation where generally 2 people get hit by shit and both heals have like 2 seconds to react, basically all it would do is free up 1 global cooldown for the healer which would end up in a dps skill used as healing cant be required right that very second or bard would be mandatory so at the end of the day every paen would end up being worth like 10 dps.
which leaves natures minne which is single target, you nearly never get anything out of raising the heal a single person gets by 20%, in fact mantra is still probably more useful in 95% of cases, does this mean its worth nothing ? no, it totally is worth something, but not a 500 dps hit, it doesn't help survive tankbusters or strong group aoe, when titan is throwing his hissy fit at the final phase of the fight mantra is really usefull as it hits everyone, natures minne ? great going, one of 8 has a slighty better chance of survival, single player gets marked for some mechanic ? again all it ever really does is potentially opening up a global cooldown for a healer, and thats a big "potentially" if you are at 10k hp and need 80 to survive the next mechanic it doesn't matter if you get healed twice for 40k or for 48k, it will take 2 heals anyways, i'm not saying the are worth nothing, i'm saying even in a "perfect" scenario they aren't worth 500 dps and 9 out of 10 scenarios aren't gonna be perfect which has to be taken into consideration aswell.
or to go to your own redmage example, if a redmage can rezz 2 people quickly that would otherwise be dead for 30 seconds or so as the healer has his hands full they would than easily save the group 1500 dps, let him throw another cure at the right time saving someones ass (way more realistic than natures minne saving someone sadly...) and considering this person gets spared a debuff thats easily worth another 1000 dps. this however is not generally what happens which is why you don't put them 2500 dps below the competition even though in some very rare fringe cases it could happen, in the same vein natures minne and wardens paen (if it ever gets any use at all again) may save someone the time to deal another 100 dps ,maybe even 200 if they get used correctly and multiple times in the fight but these is all this skills will ever be good for as otherwise they would be mandatory, helping the healer changing 1, maybe 2 global cooldowns from heals into dps skills, the skills simply are not that good, they have use, they have value, but this value is miniscule even in the fights it can be used correctly which is nearly no fight.
summoners would riot if square told them tomorrow "you know, we kinda think you should deal at least 500 dps less than blackmage cause you have a rezz" and being able to pick up a dead teammate is worth WAY more than helping the heal do more overheal on the tank