Bard's Thematic Future

There is precisely zero possibility they covert Bard into Ranger at this stage. The undertaking would require a massive reworking for something ultimately not really worth the endeavour. Instead of a new job, we'd essentially have two halves rebuilt. Furthermore, Bard from previous FFs will not work in this game because it has to be a damage dealer. It essentially becomes Dancer... which means now you wield a Harp in lieu of a bow and maybe have a few more buffs. But at the end of the day, you're a DPS who is expected to DPS. Regardless, even if this were under some consideration, it's extremely unlikely they release another physical Range.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

There is precisely zero possibility they covert Bard into Ranger at this stage. The undertaking would require a massive reworking for something ultimately not really worth the endeavour. Instead of a new job, we'd essentially have two halves rebuilt. Furthermore, Bard from previous FFs will not work in this game because it has to be a damage dealer. It essentially becomes Dancer... which means now you wield a Harp in lieu of a bow and maybe have a few more buffs. But at the end of the day, you're a DPS who is expected to DPS. Regardless, even if this were under some consideration, it's extremely unlikely they release another physical Range.

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I have to disagree. 4 tanks, 4 melee, 3 healers, 3 ranged, 3 casters (4 if you count BLU). Adding a healer and a ranged would balance the roles out a bit.

Additionally, changing BRD to RNG would only require new quests, 7 animation changes and no balance adjustments in it's current form. RNG in the series did have very small amounts of defensive support, usually in the form of animals. Then, adding a new BRD from the ground up would focus on songs and could, hear me out, even be a healer.

Minnes in the series were defensive songs (could be HP shields), Paeons were heals and HoTs, Requiems were damage and DoTs, Goddess' Hymnus resurrected, Lullaby is present as Repose, Nightingale/Troubadour from XI are equivalent to Lightspeed/Presence of Mind. They could have a feature where the more they sing (heals and damage), the more their Soul Voice fills up (similar to fairy gauge) and they can use that gauge for party buffs like Minuet (similar to lily gauge, balanced with AST buffs) with a song that they can sing that builds the gauge during downtime like DNC but also provides group mitigation. There's a plethora of songs in the series that can fill in any unique buffs or mechanics, really.

I'm not saying that it is likely or even the best option for BRD, just that there are absolutely viable possibilities and solutions available to get a BRD whose focus is on songs. I'd personally welcome even a drastic change as this to get a BRD who sings.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Additionally, changing BRD to RNG would only require new quests, 7 animation changes and no balance adjustments in it's current form.

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You guys act like this is simple. It's not. Bard's skill set was already gutted this expansion to the point where we have an inexplicable 12 level gap between level 18 and 30 where we don't get any new skills at all. I'm not sure what a split would even achieve on top of that, assuming the devs actually do it.

For everyone who thinks this is actually feasible, I challenge you to come up with a list of skills/traits for the split classes from level 1-80. As someone who spent literal days coming up with those kinds of suggestions in my previous MMO, it's nowhere near as easy as you think. The vast majority of them turned out bad, wouldn't play very well in hindsight, or were straight up overpowered in hindsight. And I say this as someone that already tried to come up with a way to split Archer into Ranger and Bard, only to come to the conclusion that it isn't feasible development-wise. It'd entail designing a new set of weapons, a whole new quest series along with re-writing the current Bard quests (when the developers didn't even bother making a new series of job quests this expansion and just stuck them at level 80).

That's on top of trying to rebalance Ranger around all the other DPS AND balancing a theoretical healer Bard against all the other healers at the same time. Oh, and maybe ticking off a lot of the current Bard players who probably won't like how the new Ranger plays, and accusations from the Chemist/Geomancer fans and Healers in general that the devs are so lazy that they would rather split an existing class to make a new healer, instead of making an entirely new class from scratch. It's enough of a miracle that SB Bard was as well-received as it was.

Bard already gets overhauled every expansion, I'd rather not keep that meme going. The devs won't even fully split Scholar and Summoner despite them openly admitting that joining them together was a mistake for years, a Bard split isn't going to happen and I'd rather we focus our efforts on realistic suggestions.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Bard's skill set was already gutted this expansion to the point where we have an inexplicable 12 level gap between level 18 and 30 where we don't get any new skills at all.

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That 12 level gap already existed back in SB since the level 22 Swiftsong and the level 26 Hawk's Eye were removed. You're right on the money with everything else though. It would be a stupid amount of work to separate Bard and Ranger, not to mention it would involve severely retconning the hell out out Job Lore that's been established for the past 6+ years, including already published material like Encyclopedia Eorzea. The level 30 through 50 Job quests are all about the Archer becoming a Bard, the level 50 through 60 Job quests are all about finding the Ballad of Oblivion to convice the Adders to train Archers as Bards. They just going to rewrite the premise the all those Job quests? And that's to say nothing about developing an entirely new Job lore for the proposed Ranger, the effects of punting Bard into a different role, etc. It's genuinely confusing to see people write off as simple or "oh they just need to do this" when really it would be a massive amount of work to do something they already don't like doing.

Bard is currently a bit lacking thematically since they removed some of our support abilities, but to say it's a random mash-up of conflicting themes would do well to re-read what Jehantel says in the level 35 Bard quest:

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Ever since nations first quarreled, armies have fielded archers wherewith they rained death upon the enemy from afar. As the battle unfolded, however, the distinction between the lines of friend and foe would grow hazy. Yet the archer's part did not end there.

He had to stay ever alert, with arrow nocked and eyes trained upon the struggle.

Even as his comrades fell, turning the earth red with their blood, the archer could ill afford to avert his gaze, lest that moment cost another his life.

One need not have a vivid imagination to appreciate the torrent of emotions that raged within him in that moment.

Nerves near to fraying, his breast fit to burst, the archer did the only thing he could: he sang. His bow became a makeshift instrument, plucked as an accompaniment.

At first, the archer sang only to still the roiling within. But his voice chanced to carry to his comrades. It inspirited those engaged in combat, lending strength to their sword arms. And to those who lay upon the precipice of death, it granted a measure of peace.

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The Job identity is there, the lore and the quests support it, it's only the gameplay that is currently lacking. Splitting Bard into a separate Bard and Ranger Job is a terrible idea and it would piss off a fair chunk of people, myself included. I get that there are people upset about not having a Ranger, and I get that there are people upset about not having a Bard strumming a lute, but gutting Bard isn't the answer.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

For everyone who thinks this is actually feasible, I challenge you to come up with a list of skills/traits for the split classes from level 1-80.

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You're misinterpreting. When it comes to a split, we're (or at least I am) saying that Bard as it is can be Ranger. All that is needed is swapping out existing song animations for animals, poisons, traps, etc. The current gameplay would translate 100%. There is no need to rebalance Ranger as it wouldn't be gaining or losing any actual abilities, just changing animations. Like how changing Ifrit Egi into any of the 3 Carbuncles doesn't change his abilities or potencies.

Instead of Warden's Paean to remove a debuff, it could be Leech (akin to FFTA2). Instead of Troubadour to reduce damage, it could be Camouflage (XI). Instead of Nature's Minne for enhanced HP recovery, it could be related to woodland creatures (akin to !Animals from FFV). Instead of Pitch Perfect, it could be Eagle Eye Shot (from XI). Instead of 3 Songs and repertoire they could use for example 3 different types of Traps, still have their ticks generated by wind/venom bites, all unchanged, just animations and theme. Nearly all arrow attacks would be unchanged even in animation. Exact same gameplay, just a new name, Ranger, and 7 or 8 animations changed out for different ones.

Then they devs would only be adding in 1 new job, Bard, to balance against the others in whatever its designated role should be. This would be no more or less of an endeavor than adding in any other new job except as far as lore. But, even then the SCH job quests are handled by a Marauder - so the actual amount of lore changing need not change by much at all. The reason I suggested healer before was simply to show that BRD needn't be a DPS, it has songs for either role and is flexible in that. Plus, BRD as healer doesn't step on anyones toes as GEO would with CNJ/AST lore, or CHM could with ALC/MCH (not to mention they tried to add CHM for HW but found it too difficult, instead splitting it into AST and MCH). But that's getting off topic lol.

I play a bard because I WANT to be a bard.
I don't want to be a ranger.
I want to be a BARD.

Please leave my bard alone. Petition for a new ranged class (hunter/ranger) whatever you would like to call it. But please, I enjoy bard for bard and I don't want to see the class have ANOTHER identity crisis in 6.0.

It would be far easier to implement Ranger as a new DPS job in 6.0 as opposed to changing current BRD into Ranger. People who think that turning current BRD into a Ranger would be easy are clearly not considering all that would need to be done for this to be feasible.

First of all, you would have to go about changing its quest chains and its lore: this would include completely rewriting and redoing the 30 through 70 quests, as well as redoing the level 80 quest; because it would make little to no sense for you to be obtaining BRD-y skills/abilities (which are mentioned throughout the 30~50 chain), chasing the Ballad of Oblivion during the 50~60 chain, and singing to inspire a group of Adders in the level 80 quest when you’re a Ranger. That is A LOT of retconning. Secondly, you’d have to change its toolkit and playstyle AGAIN: BRD has seen 2 major overhauls already (3.0 Bowmage and 4.0 Revamped BRD), and I would rather not see it have yet another one simply because some people want Ranger.

I want the job I have played for almost 4 years to return to the roots that attracted me to it. I don’t want it to be a Ranger. I don’t mind if they want to add a Ranger in the future, but I do not want our current BRD to become a completely new job to satisfy those who want a Ranger.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

It would be a stupid amount of work to separate Bard and Ranger, not to mention it would involve severely retconning the hell out out Job Lore that's been established for the past 6+ years, including already published material like Encyclopedia Eorzea. The level 30 through 50 Job quests are all about the Archer becoming a Bard, the level 50 through 60 Job quests are all about finding the Ballad of Oblivion to convice the Adders to train Archers as Bards. They just going to rewrite the premise the all those Job quests? And that's to say nothing about developing an entirely new Job lore for the proposed Ranger, the effects of punting Bard into a different role, etc. It's genuinely confusing to see people write off as simple or "oh they just need to do this" when really it would be a massive amount of work to do something they already don't like doing.

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If I could like this post more than once, I would. It’s a lot more work than people think it would be.

And very nice work, pointing out how much this retcon would affect Encyclopedia Eorzea. I know that there’s already some mild retcons regarding old skills/abilities that were labeled as “staples” being removed since then, but we’re talking about retconning the entirety of the Bard article within that book—not just a clause or bullet point.

Lets not forget some people chose archer expecting a ranger class and got bait n switched at lv 30. There is zero bardyness 1-30.
Some of us also got Archer to 50 before the soulstones were a thing.
The 'root' of bard is archer, not minstrel or anything music related.
I for one don't feel the need to hijack the current bard, i just want a ranger class similar to the current bard, have it start at lv 30 like any other new job (or lv60 if they want to continue that trend) and if they feel inclined have the archer guildmaster give the breadcrumb to find the rangers. If you don't want to add more lore that may conflict, just have the guild master be the one to start the ranger corp specifically so Gridania could take care of business outside the forest.

Job stones got introduced in 1.2 was it? The class advancement back in the day meant the end job result was a bard if you went archer. So I won't dispute that there may be legacy folks that wanted a ranger/hunter type job, but SE gave us bard instead, and a lot of players do enjoy it for what it is. The new jobs that get introduced now aren't really tied to any particular class. They just get added in, and people can pick up and play. So yes, there is no reason for bard to be hijacked. Anyone that argues the case is being, I feel, inherently selfish and forgetting that there are a lot of players that do in fact enjoy the bard job for what it is and are fighting hard for it to get some of its job identity back.

So please, stop trying to transform bard into a ranger and hurting all of the players out there that actually enjoy it for what it is currently and instead try making requests for a new job to be added, the ranger/hunter class you all want. I'm all for you making petitions and requests, just please be mindful that not everyone that has mained and played the job for 6 years want to go through ANOTHER transformation come next xpack.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

There is precisely zero possibility they covert Bard into Ranger at this stage. The undertaking would require a massive reworking for something ultimately not really worth the endeavour. Instead of a new job, we'd essentially have two halves rebuilt. Furthermore, Bard from previous FFs will not work in this game because it has to be a damage dealer. It essentially becomes Dancer... which means now you wield a Harp in lieu of a bow and maybe have a few more buffs. But at the end of the day, you're a DPS who is expected to DPS. Regardless, even if this were under some consideration, it's extremely unlikely they release another physical Range.

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No one said anything about an actual Bard not DPSing. It's really not impossible for a musical job to be a DPS heavy participant and I don't understand why everyone assumes a harp-wielding class would have no feasible move set other than exclusively buffing. Need an example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMf6NdM55ws

Furthermore, it's literally about the same amount of work as adding in 1 new job.

Ranger adopts the identity current Bard has, so most of what Ranger would consist of would be inherited from what we already have, so it wouldn't be any different from the usual changes each job goes through in an expansion. The big thing would be adding in the job quests, but while Bard would be added as the real new class between the two, it would just inherit the current Bard job quests, so it wouldn't be adding more work at all. You'd still be updating 1 existing set of abilities, adding in 1 new set of abilities for a new job, and creating 1 set of job quests. The only thing extra would be that you'd need to make quests starting from level 30, not level 70, but that's really not that much work.

Bard would essentially be 1 of the 2 new jobs, having a completely different weapon type and ability set, and it could absolutely be a DPS unit. It could be another support-heavy DPS like Dancer as a foil to it (For example, it could have its major support not stack with Dancer, so having both would be suboptimal as is having 2 Dancers). It could also be another Caster. Just look at the clip of Deuce's abilities. Yeah, she has support, but they take a back seat to her fantastic damaging abilities.