[Spoilers] Death and reincarnation

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Right, that's why I pointed out that there was more than one sacrifice and the point of contention was stated at most with the third. However that 14th member, were they involved with the first 2 or left after seeing the effects was my question. Because If the 14th was involved with 1 and/or 2 sacrifices how did (we) escape tempering of Zodiark? How far did the tempering spread, to those who summoned or those around...?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems people want to shove things into a certain narrative like Zodiark was absolute evil where it could be just an unintended side effect like how if you put something into belief you become a slave to its idea (hence tempering).

So that's why I'm stating confusion at people saying it's all bad, especially since that wasn't the point of contention. The only way I can see this fitting the narrative is due the timing of the departure of the 14th member...

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Oh, the 14th definitely vacated their seat prior to the summoning of Zodiark, indeed probably before the Final Days hit Amaurot itself. Hytholdaeus says the following in "A Greater Purpose":

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus

The Final Days. What began as isolated incidents soon swelled into a world-spanning threat...
The Convocation of Fourteen─well, it was Thirteen at the time─endeavored to create a will for our star. They would repair the fundamental laws of order and halt the spread of destruction.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Right, that's why I pointed out that there was more than one sacrifice and the point of contention was stated at most with the third. However that 14th member, were they involved with the first 2 or left after seeing the effects was my question. Because If the 14th was involved with 1 and/or 2 sacrifices how did (we) escape tempering of Zodiark? How far did the tempering spread, to those who summoned or those around...?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems people want to shove things into a certain narrative like Zodiark was absolute evil where it could be just an unintended side effect like how if you put something into belief you become a slave to its idea (hence tempering).

So that's why I'm stating confusion at people saying it's all bad, especially since that wasn't the point of contention. The only way I can see this fitting the narrative is due the timing of the departure of the 14th member...

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For the record, I wasn't specifying you in my confusion at the confusion. lol

I assume the 14th convocation member (and I guess any non-convocates who agreed with them?) left town/sequestered themselves(/was maybe imprisoned to keep them from interfering, who knows?) before Zodiark was summoned, given how the shades in Amaurot who are reliving the last day mention the seat being empty already. I am thinking that plans for sacrifices 1-3 were likely already decided upon by the group before the Doom actually hit.

Although maybe only step 1 was decided, and the 14th member left simply b/c of the whole "summoning a primal who will probably temper us" thing. And then only *acted* against the others when they went from voluntarily subjugating themselves to threatening innocent life.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

That's true. I think we've discussed this in other threads already and are starting to go in circles. We don't know what kind of life Zodiark created but it may have been intelligent as 1) it would explain why the Hydaelyn supporters had a problem with sacrificing them and 2) Emet's plan is to sacrifice the rejoined life on the Source to Zodiark, so we know that the Ascians approve. I think it's best to table this issue for now since we simply don't know.

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Agreed. We can't really do anything else with this until more information becomes available.

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Originally Posted by Kokomi

Another thing I'm confused about is the difference between whole and fragmented souls. Emet has made a lot of claims but we haven't seen a single difference other than comparing WoL and Emet (and possibly Ryne) vs. everyone else, and the only difference there has been power, and in Emet's case, longevity.

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This is mere speculation on my part, but it seems to me like the chief difference here may indeed be the amount of power - or rather aether- an individual possesses and/or is capable of making use of. The Ancients could use their creation magics without (in most cases) harming themselves, even managing to give rise to complex life in this way. Certain creations did require the creator to give its life, yes, but that doesn't appear to have happened with tremendous frequency. It is fairly evident that the Ancients possessed incredible amounts of aether and a highly developed control thereof. Emet-Selch (and presumably the other Ascians) also seem to believe that completing the rejoining will restore their comrades' lost identities.

The Warrior of Light is an interesting example of this, I think. Notice how he/she could not properly contain or control the immense amount of light-aspected aether they'd absorbed from the lightwardens during their journey through the First. This deficiency was amended seemingly immediately upon Ardbert choosing to give up his individuality to become one again. Not only did the WoL manage to rise, but they were able to channel heretofore unseen amounts of aether into a densely packed axe-shaped construct which was then capable of utterly destroying Emet-Selch. Their miniature rejoining even rid the WoL of the damage done to their soul by carrying that horror show around inside them all that time. This shows a clear increase in aether containment, management, and control capabilities as opposed to before they became one.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Right, that's why I pointed out that there was more than one sacrifice and the point of contention was stated at most with the third. However that 14th member, were they involved with the first 2 or left after seeing the effects was my question. Because If the 14th was involved with 1 and/or 2 sacrifices how did (we) escape tempering of Zodiark? How far did the tempering spread, to those who summoned or those around...?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems people want to shove things into a certain narrative like Zodiark was absolute evil where it could be just an unintended side effect like how if you put something into belief you become a slave to its idea (hence tempering).

So that's why I'm stating confusion at people saying it's all bad, especially since that wasn't the point of contention. The only way I can see this fitting the narrative is due the timing of the departure of the 14th member...

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The 14th left before Amaurot was even under attack so no they never were part of summoning Zodiark, heck they probably left because they found the idea of that to be bad.

IMO it makes sense that the only ones really tempered by Zodiark are those that summoned him, thus all the Ascians. If every other Ancient in the city was tempered then there would have never been conflict that would summon Hydealyn.

If the 14th is in any way similar to our character than he/she probably did not want any sacrifice to happen. Maybe they even already saw the problem with summoning something like Zodiark, or maybe they knew more about the start of the calamity and how to defeat it in a different way.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The reason I'm asking is that it seems people want to shove things into a certain narrative like Zodiark was absolute evil where it could be just an unintended side effect like how if you put something into belief you become a slave to its idea (hence tempering).

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My guess is that the Tempering was a deliberate feature, rather than an accident. The problems the Ancients were facing were largely due to out-of-control use of Creation - an obvious solution, then, would be to introduce some controls.

That said, Creation WAS out of control at the time, and it's entirely possible that the Convocation was subject to that problem, as well. Zodiark may have had unintended flaws in his creation; maybe Tempering wasn't intended, but wound up in the final product due to one or more members having stray thoughts in regards to keeping the panicking people in line during the Creation process.

I think it's unlikely, though, that Tempering was an unavoidable and inherent part of summoning Zodiark. The Ancients created all kinds of things, and as far as we know they did not become Tempered by them. Zodiark is just another Creation, albeit on a much larger scale.

And, yeah, as was mentioned above, Zodiark likely did not Temper everyone, or there would have been no one to summon Hydaelyn. How many people he DID Temper is a good question, however, whether he got to anyone outside the Convocation.

I also wonder whether his Tempering in still in effect for the Convocation members whose souls were Sundered. The Ascians are able to recruit these Sundered Convocation members, as we know, but how much free will is involved in those members joining up? I'd really like to know what was involved, bringing folks like Nabriales and Igeyorhm on board. Presumably, they started out born as mortals with no memories of their previous lives. Were they ensnared by Zodiark even then? Did the Big Three Temper them to ensure they joined? Did they awaken their memories from their previous lives?

Well going back with Ifrit, if a primal can...it seems they will try to temper in proximity.

I would even dare say that we are in fact tempered by Hydaelyn which prevents us being tempered by other primals - BUT she tempers with free will "Hear Feel Think" basically that's how it's circumvented. We're tempered WITH free will - preventing further temperings if I'm guessing correctly

As far as the dialog goes - https://pastebin.com/ffXVNJsM In answering what's going on with the sundered Ascians.

I am ever intrigued by the amount of people trying their hardest to churn out theories that absolve Hydaelyn whilst portraying Zodiark as an inherently evil being. Nothing we know so far suggests that Zodiark did anything more or less than what was asked of him after a bunch of Ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to summon him twice. As for tempering? Ramuh tells us that it isn't necessarily a voluntary action. Is it really that difficult to accept that things might not be so black and white?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I am ever intrigued by the amount of people trying their hardest to churn out theories that absolve Hydaelyn whilst portraying Zodiark as an inherently evil being. Nothing we know so far suggests that Zodiark did anything more or less than what was asked of him after a bunch of Ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to summon him twice. As for tempering? Ramuh tells us that it isn't necessarily a voluntary action. Is it really that difficult to accept that things might not be so black and white?

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Okay now here's the thing, why does everyone assume he was 'summoned' twice instead of just persisting after being summoned the first time until he was sundered by Hydaelyn?

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Originally Posted by Hythlodaeus

The Final Days. What began as isolated incidents soon swelled into a world-spanning threat...
The Convocation of Fourteen─well, it was Thirteen at the time─endeavored to create a will for our star. They would repair the fundamental laws of order and halt the spread of destruction. But creation on such a scale required an immense source of power...
Of those of us who still lived, nearly half offered up their lives in the name of salvation. And from their sacrifice, Zodiark was born. Just as we had hoped, He reached forth and halted the march of oblivion.
...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow. Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish.
The cycle of life had begun anew, and we reconsidered the means by which we might protect it. The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark...
In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards.

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This doesn't read to me like he was summoned twice, but was there already, and they just gave their lives up as fuel for his powers, like modern primals would consume crystals to sustain themselves.

Because all we have to go on are some murals, a few suppositions, and the word of Emet-Selch himself. The two possibilities we may infer thus far are:

1.) Zodiark had to be resummoned after fulfilling its original task.
2.) Zodiark did not have to be resummoned, but it did not have enough power left after its initial task to restore life and habitability to the ruined landscape.

Nothing we've seen up until this point suggests that he started demanding sacrifices in exchange for the tasks that were given to him.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Because all we have to go on are some murals, a few suppositions, and the word of Emet-Selch himself. The two possibilities we may infer thus far are:

1.) Zodiark had to be resummoned after fulfilling its original task.
2.) Zodiark did not have to be resummoned, but it did not have enough power left after its initial task to restore life and habitability to the ruined landscape.

Nothing we've seen up until this point suggests that he started demanding sacrifices in exchange for the tasks that were given to him.

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Ah, in that case, I think we should use the analogy that primals are essentially computer programs. They don't do what they aren't programmed to. And the only way to 'reprogram' Zodiark was to sacrifice some lives to him as a source of energy. He didn't DEMAND it, but it was the only way for the Ancients to get Him to do what they wanted Him to do. In which case, blame the designer and we can all see it boils down to #blameLahabrea.