This and what you posted afterwards really makes me wonder if you actually see tanking as anything other than holding aggro. Having an easy time holding it and thinking it makes you feel lazy/bad/skilless is akin to a DPS complaining that it's easy to do good dps on a simple rotation. The difference being that generating DPS is their main job while generating aggro shouldn't be (and now isn't) our main concern. It is no measure of your tanking skill as a DPS's numbers is theirs. Perhaps it is the fact that I come from tanking on other games, but I've never played one where tanks have no trouble enmity and complain about it. It gives you the chance to focus more on mechanics and positioning and yes, your own personal DPS. Because in the end it does matter, and might as well save you from a wipe due to enrage or w/e.Quote:
Post patch I, me, the person typing this, feel like I'm doing something wrong when I play a tank.
I feel like I'm not doing anything to control mob hate.
It makes me feel like I'm being a bad tank, even though I'm holding hate perfectly fine.
It makes me feel like I'm being a lazy tank.
It makes me feel like I'm presenting no skill what so ever at tanking.
As for the differences between tanking classes, even as a fairly new player I can clearly see them without having to go through the balancing hell of actually making them contribute less or more DPS. All this would make is every tank have to play the bunker, self-sustaining class on the first week of new content, and then switch to the more DPS focused one when they're better geared and don't need to worry about surviving as much. The differences are already there, in their playstyle, and some of the cooldowns and usage. Like how the GNB, unlike other tanks, is much more focused in smoothing out damage spikes instead of having big heals or CDs to recover from low HP to full.
How tanking feels post ShB patch
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07-14-2019, 08:45 PMBobzitto
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07-14-2019, 09:41 PMDalmacus
That's what i felt after entering the first 5.0 dungeon. It does feel abit like i'm a DPS albeit lesser damage numbers. I still have the habit of glancing over the emnity bar to check once and alwhile but now i totally stopped looking at it and kinda feel it's a useless mechanic now. IMO, I think they toned down tanking difficulty too much. Prior to 5.0 at least players have to know what emnity opener they need to do before they start to DPS but now you just hit any gap closer button and bam emnity generated higher than anyone.
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07-15-2019, 12:04 AMPhileas
I get the sense fom your post that you feel that holding enmity is our defining trait.
This isn’t strictly true - holding enmity is a part of the role but they just got rid of the stress of the old tank stances and enmity generation. Now the main focus is enemy positioning, mitigate damage from tank busting attacks, protecting party members and the off tank in dual tank situations and finally dps so we can help kill things. Once you satisfy the first three you can just focus on maximising your rotation. Tanks have a few duties still even after the changes to enmity. I still mitigate big hits and protect party members from raid wide aoe damage.
Tank stance dancing was an annoyance more than an interesting point. I now feel more focused on mechanics rather than having to worry about whether everyone has used diversion so I can maintain dps stance like in 4.0....it is rather freeing for me -
07-15-2019, 12:16 AMNyxheart
Tanking is so much more than emity as holding is a requirement to being a tank. I think it's about control. Controling the pace, positioning correctly for everyones benifit, managing your cds effectively, etc. If you feel like your being a 'lazy' tank, push your party by running harder content or pulling bigger if possible (just remember when with lesser skilled players to pull as big as your party as a whole can handle not necessarily just you).
I'm not exactly a huge fan of some of the changes (I want my IB and SC back damn it), but I understand why they were made. It's not going to change back as it's not broken (excluding something actually out of balance) it's just a bit different. As players we need to adjust by either finding satisfaction in our classes or playing something else, like picking whm over ast as my healer of choise to play. I wish lower lvl content was more fun for me with my war, but I still love my class and enjoy how it plays endgame. -
07-15-2019, 01:45 AMIntrovertAntOh man, dungeons used to feel like such ass on pld. Flash felt awful to use as did just doing TE. Now doing dungeons as a PLD feels great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Booden
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07-15-2019, 01:50 AMIntrovertAntThis^Quote:
Originally Posted by Phileas
Completely agree. I feel free and in control with new tank changes as well. -
07-15-2019, 01:58 AMKhalithar
My co-tank from my old static argued with me that they wouldn't make it so main tanks could stay in their tank stance at all times with no penalty, that there would be a reason to toggle off tank stance while tanking to boost dps... he still needs to admit being wrong to me!
That aside, it is true that they made holding aggro completely brain dead and I don't think that's a bad thing. Aggro management has been made a non-issue and it puts the focus for tanks solely on mitigating damage via cooldowns and stuns, positioning the boss correctly, and doing mechanics with movement while maximizing your dps. I'm ok with this. -
07-15-2019, 02:08 AMValmarusI guess that's where the difference lies. I've come from MMOs (Mostly FFXI but other MMOs also) where the exact opposite is true. Actually holding the hate of the mob actually took some skill and wasn't some mechanic that for all intents and purposes may as well no longer exist. Where DPS had to manage hate and back off damage from time to time rather than mindlessly go full out. Games where healers can quite easily top the hate list if too much damage is taken by people. Hell in FFXI we even had a non-tanking class whos primary function was to control hate (thief could add hate to tank and take it away from others). That whole dance around emnity control is what makes tanking feel different (to me). There was skill and thought that went into the actual holding the mob. And with out that it just doesn't feel like I'm tanking. And don't give me "this isn't FFXI " it's also not any other MMO where hate management isn't a thing and though it started out with stupid easy hate management it still started with hate management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobzitto
Glad to see I'm not the only one this has thrown off. I've always thought tanking difficulty in this game was too toned down even at release. Even before this update however I still saw tanks who completely ignored their hate rotations in level 50 or lower dungeons and the mobs just ran wild. And I think you've hit the crux of it there, now that's gone I haven't been noticing "bad tanks". And I agree it's a useless mechanic now. I feel that everything is now a focus on roles andthat at this point we may as well just have the monster automatically main target anybody with the tank role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalmacus
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07-15-2019, 02:30 AMSqwall
To be honest the "feel" of the jobs has changed because they took away some of the flashiest and visually hard hitting skills for all tanks.
1. Rage of Halone - althought boring after 5 years of use, it was flashy and sounded good when it hit. when I got this at 26 I loved the way how cool it was. You could always here it over all the trash pulls and dungeon nonsense that happened.
2. Butcher Block - talk about over the top! Albeit this skill was the most satisfying skill to use for my taste. I have a decent sound system and this really made the sub woofer push out some air. I was sad when they removed it, and hoping they would replace it with something equal.
3. Power Slash - This really made the DRK feel chunky, albeit it was part of the enmity opener and didn't really get much more use then that, they removed it. I hit hard and felt good when you used it.
Honestly I agree with the OP about how the tanks "feel". For me it's almost how ninjas rotation feels. Like i'm using daggers and not some large sword and shield.
If they want to change how the tanks "feel" add some low frequency tones to the sound FX and all should "feel" more weighty all around. Well that's my opinion anyway. -
07-15-2019, 03:00 AMPhysictanking is holding hate that's the most important factor, If as you said something is a requirement as long as you are doing the job, that makes it the most important part. Like a book critic is a reading jobQuote:
Originally Posted by Legion88
That said, they have apparently decided that just by selecting your role, you will hold hate, so emnity is no longer a consideration. That may be fine, but basically it makes the job feel like a dps, because the main goal, and focus of player input is to dps. mitigation is considered into gameplay about 15% of the time, now that's about 13% more than other classes, but it does make some one saying it doesnt feel like the purpose of my job is tanking seem like they may have a point.