Collective Unconscious and Sacred Soil

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Originally Posted by IanFrench

Please be honest with yourself about SS's cost. There are countless threads complaining about the excessive aetherflows after losing ED. The opportunity cost of SS is almost neglectable. Compared to SS, CU has a 3 times CD( 30s vs 90s), half potency (500 vs 250), and more importantly rooted condition (means AST has to chanel it the whole time!) All this makes me feel if CU does not have a much stronger potency than SS, it is just ridiculous!

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Do you even know how CU works....? I'll agree with you saying that it needs to be stronger. But if you are channeling it for the entire 18s of the ability, you are using it very wrong. Also I talked about opportunity cost more in-depth in another post in this topic. Having or not having extra aetherflow stacks is irrelevant to that part.

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Originally Posted by IanFrench

Please be honest with yourself about SS's cost. There are countless threads complaining about the excessive aetherflows after losing ED. The opportunity cost of SS is almost neglectable. Compared to SS, CU has a 3 times CD( 30s vs 90s), half potency (500 vs 250), and more importantly rooted condition (means AST has to chanel it the whole time!) All this makes me feel if CU does not have a much stronger potency than SS, it is just ridiculous!

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When I was leveling the Sacred Soil upgrade was the one new Scholar thing I was most looking forward too, because Sacred Soil hasn't been worth the Aetherflow use since we got Indom. Unless that extra mitigation is completely needed to stop someone from dying it was always better to use that stack to AE heal with Indom or patch heal with Lustrate. Once I got the upgrade I thought it was nice but it didn't blow me away like I was hoping. At this point it's merely worth using over other Aetherflow moves in certain situations.

Now, people keep saying 500 potency, it's actually 600. If you are in the bubble when it goes down it ticks once immediately to apply the Sacred Soil effect, then for 5 normal HoT ticks as long as you stay in it the whole time. If you leave the bubble you lose the effects.

This basically means it's old Sacred Soil with a built in Lustrate worth of regen healing. This means it's worth using in dungeons after the tank has pulled all the mobs they're going to, if the potency was much lower it would not be worth using over a Lustrate in that scenario. In Extreme trials so far it's worth using if the party is stacked up for a mechanic, and basically no other time. People are usually so spread out that Indom or individual Lustrates are still better uses of Aetherflow.

If I am full on Aetherflow that means I have had no need to use them for healing, I'm not just going to throw a Sacred Soil out for funsies. There's no reason to waste a resource just because you don't currently need it, people can always get stupid and need a Lustrate or two.

I do think that both Collective Unconscious and Celestial Opposition need buffs. I also think that if they shared a charge resource with Essential Dignity they would quickly find themselves left in the dirt for almost every situation even if they had 30 second individual recasts.

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

Do you even know how CU works....? I'll agree with you saying that it needs to be stronger. But if you are channeling it for the entire 18s of the ability, you are using it very wrong. Also I talked about opportunity cost more in-depth in another post in this topic. Having or not having extra aetherflow stacks is irrelevant to that part.

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It's not a discussion when you use a question to avoid your own flaw part in your argument about how "expensive" SS's cost is.

But leaving that aside, let me answer what you bring up this time, SS & CU is not just about HOT heals, they also serve the function of 10% dmg reduction. When dealing a period of constant severe damages, CU's 10% reduction is not applicable at all since AST cannot afford the cost of channeling it, while SS can simple do both (mitigation and hot heal) and more.

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Originally Posted by TalixRune

When I was leveling the Sacred Soil upgrade was the one new Scholar thing I was most looking forward too, because Sacred Soil hasn't been worth the Aetherflow use since we got Indom. Unless that extra mitigation is completely needed to stop someone from dying it was always better to use that stack to AE heal with Indom or patch heal with Lustrate. Once I got the upgrade I thought it was nice but it didn't blow me away like I was hoping. At this point it's merely worth using over other Aetherflow moves in certain situations.

Now, people keep saying 500 potency, it's actually 600. If you are in the bubble when it goes down it ticks once immediately to apply the Sacred Soil effect, then for 5 normal HoT ticks as long as you stay in it the whole time. If you leave the bubble you lose the effects.

This basically means it's old Sacred Soil with a built in Lustrate worth of regen healing. This means it's worth using in dungeons after the tank has pulled all the mobs they're going to, if the potency was much lower it would not be worth using over a Lustrate in that scenario. In Extreme trials so far it's worth using if the party is stacked up for a mechanic, and basically no other time. People are usually so spread out that Indom or individual Lustrates are still better uses of Aetherflow.

If I am full on Aetherflow that means I have had no need to use them for healing, I'm not just going to throw a Sacred Soil out for funsies. There's no reason to waste a resource just because you don't currently need it, people can always get stupid and need a Lustrate or two.

I do think that both Collective Unconscious and Celestial Opposition need buffs. I also think that if they shared a charge resource with Essential Dignity they would quickly find themselves left in the dirt for almost every situation even if they had 30 second individual recasts.

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I think it is wise to focus on CU vs SS rather than bring other abilities/spells in the discussion. If AST get to use CU/CO/ES every 30sec, I don't mind to link the charge together with ED. In fact ED has 40s cool down, CU 90s, CO 120s which means AST cannot throw them as much as they want. If Lustrate is really that much needed, there won't be so many threads complaining the lost of Energy Drain

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Originally Posted by IanFrench

It's not a discussion when you use a question to avoid your own flaw part in your argument about how "expensive" SS's cost is.

But leaving that aside, let me answer what you bring up this time, SS & CU is not just about HOT heals, they also serve the function of 10% dmg reduction. When dealing a period of constant severe damages, CU's 10% reduction is not applicable at all since AST cannot afford the cost of channeling it, while SS can simple do both (mitigation and hot heal) and more.

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If the old sacred soil doesn't either save someone from dying or mitigate more than a lustrate would heal, then it's essentially worthless. I could have one extra stack, or I could have 20 extra stacks. It would not change this. Sacred soil is at least as expensive as giving up a lustrate, and at most as expensive as giving up an indom. This isn't a hard concept, and this will be the last time I explain it to address the "flaw" you think that my post has. Further, you saying "CU's 10% reduction is not applicable at all since AST cannot afford the cost of channeling it" is utterly ridiculous and shows that you don't really know how the ability actually functions. You can press CU once, and cancel it immediately. You will get the regen for 15 seconds and the damage reduction for 5 seconds. Having 5 seconds of damage reduction is more than enough time to mitigate any potentially dangerous incoming raid damage. I encourage you to try this out for yourself. You could argue that the regen on CU is way too weak and that the regen on sacred soil might be a little too strong, and I would mostly agree with you. Anything you've said beyond that though is pretty absurd, such as you saying that CU should only be compared to sacred soil. If this is the case, then what would we compare earthly star to? Indom and Assize? If that's the case, by the way that you categorizing abilities to compare, then wouldn't earthly star be far too strong at 720 healing potency? I think you can see how laughable that line of thinking is.

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

You can press CU once, and cancel it immediately. You will get the regen for 15 seconds and the damage reduction for 5 seconds. Having 5 seconds of damage reduction is more than enough time to mitigate any potentially dangerous incoming raid damage.

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The damage reduction is gone the server tick after the bubble disappears. This is because the damage resistance has no duration. So you have to be absolutely perfect on hitting the right server tick to pull that off.

What Indom lacks in pure healing per cast output it makes up for in being 2x more available with no setup time required, technically Indom heals more then Earthly Star does for the value of cooldown healing 800 potency in the same 60 seconds, Earthly Star just has a bigger placement range and does minor damage. Assize makes up for the differential in doing considerably more (2x more) damage and restoring 5% MP with 25% less cooldown then Earthly Star, again with no setup time required.

When it comes to CU vs SS... with the current strength of the skills and taking into account the downsides to getting the full effectiveness of either SS would need a cooldown of 120 seconds to be balanced with CU. Preferably CU should just be buffed to take into account its extensive downsides and its long cooldown.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

What Indom lacks in pure healing per cast output it makes up for in being 2x more available with no setup time required, technically Indom heals more then Earthly Star does for the value of cooldown healing 800 potency in the same 60 seconds, Earthly Star just has a bigger AoE and does minor damage. Assize makes up for the differential in doing considerably more (2x more) damage and restoring 5% MP with 25% less cooldown then Earthly Star, again with no setup time required.

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Aren't you kind of refuting yourself? Indom can't have that availability if you're spending stacks on Sacred Soil, and at least one of your stacks is likely going to Excogitation, if not two because excog only has a 45 second cooldown (and an 800 potency tank heal that only triggers when needed is very valuable). It really depends on what's going on in the fight, but resource management has always been the point of SCH. You can do a lot with Aetherflow, and can change your application as needed, but you can't do it all.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

The damage reduction is gone the server tick after the bubble disappears. This is because the damage resistance has no duration. So you have to be absolutely perfect on hitting the right server tick to pull that off.

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No....it's actually 5 seconds. Look at your combat logs. It actually says "You lose the effect of Collective Unconscious" twice when you cancel it. The first is immediate and actually refers to the bubble disappearing, and the second happens 5 seconds later when you lose the damage reduction. I could post a screenshot of my combat logs, but that would be senseless because it only has minute timestamps. The only thing I can say is that you need to go try this out for yourself. I can absolutely guarantee you that it does not operate on server ticks. Also no arguments from me about CU needing a buff, I can agree that that skill needs some serious potency buffs. What I was trying to say, though, is that you do not need to channel CU to make use of the damage reduction, like that other guy was suggesting. Five seconds is a pretty big window for the majority of things that you actually need to mitigate.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

The damage reduction is gone the server tick after the bubble disappears. This is because the damage resistance has no duration. So you have to be absolutely perfect on hitting the right server tick to pull that off..

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The damage reduction stays for 5s even if you moved right after using the bubble.
The best you can do to see it is to test it by yourself and observe the mitigation debuff on your buff bars + checking your battle logs.

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

... Anything you've said beyond that though is pretty absurd, such as you saying that CU should only be compared to sacred soil. If this is the case, then what would we compare earthly star to? Indom and Assize? If that's the case, by the way that you categorizing abilities to compare, then wouldn't earthly star be far too strong at 720 healing potency? I think you can see how laughable that line of thinking is.

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I am simply comparing CU with SS because that's the topic of this thread, and that's what you do too. If you don't think they are comparable, why we find you here in this thread?

Accusing someone is "absurd" while you yourself are comparing only the ES's 720 potency vs Indom's 400 potency without thinking about cd/range/ease to use.

First, ES has a 60s CD, indom has 30s cd, which makes the indom can be used twice while ES can only be used once in a minute. 400x2 = 800 potency, how about now?

Second, ES has a pool 8y range which means ppl has to stay close to get healed, while indom has 15y range which is pretty friendly for casters/ranged dps

Third, for ES to upgrade to 720potency, AST has to press the button once, then press it again after selecting a desired location, and wait for 10 seconds, and press it again to blow it. While indom is simply one hit.

ES has to be planned for use while indom could be used as a "o-shit" button and allow sch to wave with more flexibility given to its ease of use, short cooldown and larger range.

And again, keep bringing other spells/abilities into this CU/SS thread simply indicates even you know it yourself that SS is better in every aspect and CU needs to be fixed, thats why you look elsewhere to bring more support, and failed again.