Let's talk about Holmgang, is it stronger, as strong, or...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

apparently holmgang is 6 minutes at the e3 titania fight
but now they can move freely with it up

I think it was a really good move as it basically was a second knock back resistances on warrior with a short recast timer
but it was only the silver medal compared to hollowed ground but the CD nerf was expected(if its like that in final game)

its good but only because of its 180 recast imo

---

Since there's no longer a knockback resistance on it, not like we still need with Arms Length, 6 minutes is a bit too much imo. Should have just made it 5 like Living Dead and SuperBolide.

But, since they increased the CD, do you know if the duration was increased as well? Lol. Not like that really matters, but just to be fair...

6 minutes sounds like it'll have similar utility compared to every other tank CD. What's to complain about if that's the case?

You know your class is OP when WAR start postin threads: Improve Inner Chaos sound effect...

Looking back, I apologize for my post seeming aggressive. It was like 3 in the morning and I dont really like horribly blatant misinformation. I was in a "hold my beer" sort of mood.

If Homgang in really at 6 minutes from the e3 fight, that does alot to make WAR alot more competitive rather than required... It's a huge nerf to the ability, but putting my bias aside, I actually think is pretty healthy for the tank balance. I'm just afraid, if this nerf is true, that is actually sticks. If holmgang drops back down to 3 minutes in 5.05, I might actually be done with the blatant favortism

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

apparently holmgang is 6 minutes at the e3 titania fight
but now they can move freely with it up

I think it was a really good move as it basically was a second knock back resistances on warrior with a short recast timer
but it was only the silver medal compared to hollowed ground but the CD nerf was expected(if its like that in final game)

its good but only because of its 180 recast imo

---

its a worse version of superbolide, so if anything it should be 60s shorter than superbolide.
so 240 seems like a reasonable change to the no longer needing a target effect (it did lose the anti push back, which was useful as far as im concerned.)
making it 360s, when its completely worse than superbolide makes no sense.


On another note, to those saying WAR keeps thrill of battle, tank stance etc,
If you had either of those up, you were using Holmgang wrong.

people started using Holmgang as a mitigation replacement in HW because this allows you to DOUBLE up on CDs. By using TWO CDs at the same time for TBs, you didnt have to rely on tank stances. Once you were unable to double up on CDs, either Holmgang, or tank swap, so the other tank can double up on mitigation, until you're good to do it all over again.

Holmgang: TB (unmitigated) brings you down to 1 hp, roughly 4 seconds to get your HP up, so auto attacks dont kill you after it wears off, which is roughly 1 cast, and an oGCD.
Superbolide: U drop to 1 hp, and have roughly 7 seconds for a healer to bring u up high enough to survive auto attacks after it wears off, which is 2 GCDs and roughly 2-3 oGCDs worth of time.

Holmgang only mitigates dmg if its more than what you have in remaining HP. Superbolide mitigates dmg the entire duration, but is only worth it, if the damage exceeds how much hp they lost from activation.

Holmgang is the inferior option.

If Holmgang is 6m...

Then it just means that the new FotM will be Gunbreaker because 5m CD on Superbolide (Same as DRK, but DRK requires more co-ordination to fully utilize, while GNB you just pop it and have 8 seconds where healers can heal you up no problem and even if you get insta-Benediction'd you still retain the rest of the duration being immortal)

Since, WAR's dominance is mostly centred around Holmgang's reusability vs other Tanks (3m vs 5m/7m).

With the secondary concern being DPS - Notably how much being consolidated into their burst window (To stack with Trick Attack and other rDPS CD's) alleviates boss downtime as opposed to statistically superior overall DPS. But with other Tanks becoming burstier too (PLD getting Confiteur as well as having Atonement spam during FoF and DRK getting Inner Delirium) as well as rDPS CD's being reduced across the board, this should be mitigated.

Just an observation. WAR will still be fine. But its presence as "Dominant Tank" will just be passed on to Paladin and whatever out of DRK/GNB will end up being second best Tank. (At least, until 5.1 thanks to those anti-WAR posters who keep bumping up every Tank thread to talk about WAR ;) )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danelo

6 minutes sounds like it'll have similar utility compared to every other tank CD. What's to complain about if that's the case?

You know your class is OP what WAR start postin threads: Improve Inner Chaos sound effect...

---

If it's six minutes, it went from the best tank invul to arguably the worst. It's essentially Superbolide except you still take damage, thus a heal needs to be timed before it falls off. With Superbolide, you drop to 1HP but take zero damage for eight seconds afterwards. Put it at five minutes and you give it both advantages and disadvantage—those being it's up earlier than Superbolide and doesn't require as much management as Living Dead. Speaking of Living, it gains a lot more value if Holmgang was, indeed, nerfed. While still annoying to heal, you can cheese upwards of 19 seconds.

Regardless, Holmgang does need a nerf to some extent. It's hilariously OP right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

If Holmgang is 6m...

Then it just means that the new FotM will be Gunbreaker because 5m CD on Superbolide

---

Superbolide was reduced to six minutes not five.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Just an observation. WAR will still be fine. But its presence as "Dominant Tank" will just be passed on to Paladin and whatever out of DRK/GNB will end up being second best Tank.

---

PLD is certainly the elephant in the room. Though if the napkin math is true and the complaints about GNB and DRK end up validated at the end of the day, WAR is in a very solid second. even with Holmgang being over-nerfed. Very solid damage and mitigation over the remaining 2. unless you specifically mean specifically the ults. in which case i concede holmgang would be in the worst spot. Which i still think is healthy, considering the rest of WAR's kit

Sorry, but apparently you guys don't really understand how Superbolide works and the raid opportunity cost of each invulnerability skill.

First of all, Superbolide and Hallowed Ground are immunities(you take 0 damage in duration) while Holmgang and Living Dead are death preventions(can't go bellow 1). There is a big difference here.

Now the cooldown of each of these skills take in consideration it's drawbacks:
Hallowed Ground has none, no raid cost other than the cd itself.
Superbolide immunity makes it easier for healers bring you back up since there is no opposing force to their healing, they must heal you, but not as much. (damage taken)
Living Dead forces the healers to heal you to max HP and beyond to keep you alive when it wears off.
Holmgang survival window is the shortest of all four, half in average compared to the rest, making it not only harder to heal but also only useful in situations where the damage is concentrated within 6 seconds and it must be timed perfectly.

When you analyze these skills you must take in consideration not just the tank kit, but the healers who are dealing with these skills. Amazingly it's also where the WHM utility comes from, if they save Benediction, they can always counter the drawbacks of DRK and WAR at minimal cost, and very possibly, GNB in the near future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

When you analyze these skills you must take in consideration not just the tank kit, but the healers who are dealing with these skills. Amazingly it's also where the WHM utility comes from, if they save Benediction, they can always counter the drawbacks of DRK and WAR at minimal cost, and very possibly, GNB in the near future.

---

We are.

A shorter CD is typically better due to pure availability. Going back to Godka because it epitomizes how absurdly valuable Holmgang is. You can ignore three casts of Ultimate Embrace, a massive tank buster that must otherwise be split between both tanks who will tank upwards of 40,000+ each that now needs to be healed. Holmgang allows for three instances where only one person is taking all that damage, thus less overall healing compared to Hallowed since the latter will only be up once the entire first. Furthermore, you have to consider the difficulty of healing itself. Essential Dignity and Tetra are more than enough to keep the Warrior alive through autos. And because damage is always predictable in this game, you will be well aware of when you need to heal (i.e. is the Warrior going to cheese an auto or need a heal immediately)

It's all of this that makes Holmgang 100% better on average than any other tank immunity. There are situations where Hallowed or Living pull ahead but their lengthily CDs and more demanding management (for LD) hold them back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

First of all, Superbolide and Hallowed Ground are immunities(you take 0 damage in duration) while Holmgang and Living Dead are death preventions(can't go bellow 1). There is a big difference here.

---

while i dont disagree with you, I just wanted to say that the game "technically" views the WAR/DRK invulns as an immunity too, but under the condition they are at 1hp.
if they are at 1hp, then pop holmgang/living dead, mechanics that can be cheesed with PLDs hallowed ground, can actually be cheezed with holmgang/LD. But it needs to be timed, due to auto regen 2% of ur max hp per 3 seconds.

so they are just immunities with a requirement. (so they are still inferior, as u idealy want to maximize them by keeping them at 1hp, but have more rush to heal them up at the end, making them more stressful for healers)

then of course what the next poster said, that its more than worth while, when it makes things easier in other ways, such as the CD. (also why homlg shouldnt be on a LONGER CD than superbolide.)