The Ascian Question: Have the Ascians ever lied?

On a completely related note, it seems we have more evidence of Hydaelyn lying to us than the Ascians. Specifically when WoTM is telling us about the Sundering, she says that she and Zodiark existed together in the aetherial sea "before life". But if they were both summoned as primals by another civilization, that can't be true, unless she considers 'life' as it exists in current time to be different from 'life' as it was back then.

Of course I do not have any translations for how the other languages treated this revelation, so it might have been put differently there.

Or she might be doing some other mental gymnastics to say she and Zodiark existed before life, who knows.

as many have stated solus said they are the eldest primals in a sense. which means they are not primals but primals is the only word solus can think of thats similar to what they are that we would still understand. which means they might have not been summoned but were always there and the primal summoning was based off of them.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

On a completely related note, it seems we have more evidence of Hydaelyn lying to us than the Ascians. Specifically when WoTM is telling us about the Sundering, she says that she and Zodiark existed together in the aetherial sea "before life". But if they were both summoned as primals by another civilization, that can't be true, unless she considers 'life' as it exists in current time to be different from 'life' as it was back then.

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This depends on a lot of assumptions. For one, it assumes that Solus is being truthful. For another, it assumes that there's only one kind of Primal. It also assumes that there cannot be Primals without individuals to Summon them. The great majority of Primals we've encountered were Summoned, it is true - and of those Summoned Primals, all but Enkidu had in common that the Ascians taught the method to do it. Even Phoenix was likely Summoned using Ascian methods, as they were likely the only methods Loiusoix knew.

But there's one Primal that was NOT summoned: Susano. None present had any intention of Summoning a Primal - he just popped into being when his three Treasures were gathered together. Further, he did not seem to require worship, neither did he Temper any of those present at his Summoning. Did he drain Aether from the land? Unknown. It's similarly unclear just what sort of Primal Enkidu was. (Odin - or, rather, Zantetsuken - is another oddball, but I still group that one with the Ascian Primals, as it was apparently created by Eureka, who most likely WAS a Primal of the Ascian formula.)

All these are hints that the "standard Primal formula" we know is not the ONLY Primal formula. It does not strike me as impossible to imagine that a Primal could coalesce from the Elemental Sea, much as proponents of evolution theorize that the earliest life arose from primitive proteins bumping into one another in early-Earth oceans until a self-replicating combination chanced to occur.

Bottom line: There need not have been a civilization responsible for summoning Hydaelyn and Zodiark (or their combined form). That is an assumption made by players (and not even all players buy into it; I don't), and has not yet been confirmed in-game.

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Specifically when WoTM is telling us about the Sundering, she says that she and Zodiark existed together in the aetherial sea "before life".

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If you take it at face value (and even refer to the cave paintings), Hyde saying they 'existed together in the aetherial sea' could easily refer to the singular dormant form within the planet, before it was worshipped/summoned by humanity to become the primal/entity that would (eventually) be split to form Hyde and Zodi.

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But if they were both summoned as primals by another civilization, that can't be true, unless she considers 'life' as it exists in current time to be different from 'life' as it was back then.

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Again, they originated as a single form which eventually split into both. I don't believe either have ever said one or the other were summoned directly, but Hyde most definitely has mentioned that both herself and Zodi were a single entity before the sundering, and the paintings clearly show that any primal summoning happened before either existed, and that when it did exist, divided worship/faith (or a possible second summoning) split them and caused the sundering.

TLDR; It could all just be SE not having planned ahead during Hyde earliest lines of dialogue, but even then it somewhat fits. I wouldn't say she's lied much (if at all), just been extremely vague.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Again, they originated as a single form which eventually split into both. I don't believe either have ever said one or the other were summoned directly, but Hyde most definitely has mentioned that both herself and Zodi were a single entity before the sundering, and the paintings clearly show that any primal summoning happened before either existed, and that when it did exist, divided worship/faith (or a possible second summoning) split them and caused the sundering.

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From memory, Hydaelyn implies that they were physically a single entity, but they may still have been seperate consciousnesses within that entity.

I'm reminded of the Aes Sedai from the Wheel of Time series. They're magically bound to three oaths (as in, they're physically incapable of violating them), and the first is "To speak no word which is not true." In theory, it was intended to help people trust them, but in practice, it just led to them becoming experts at double talk and exploiting the "exact words" loophole. People ended up almost completely unable to trust them, to the point that it's said in one of the books that an Aes Sedai never lies, but that doesn't mean that the truth they said is the truth you heard.

I suspect the Ascians, or at least Elidibus, fall under a similar logic. Elidibus has never outright said an untruth to us, but he's only ever told us enough to suit his own purposes. If we come to the wrong conclusions, well, that's our fault as mere mortals, right?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I'm reminded of the Aes Sedai from the Wheel of Time series. They're magically bound to three oaths (as in, they're physically incapable of violating them), and the first is "To speak no word which is not true." In theory, it was intended to help people trust them, but in practice, it just led to them becoming experts at double talk and exploiting the "exact words" loophole. People ended up almost completely unable to trust them, to the point that it's said in one of the books that an Aes Sedai never lies, but that doesn't mean that the truth they said is the truth you heard.

I suspect the Ascians, or at least Elidibus, fall under a similar logic. Elidibus has never outright said an untruth to us, but he's only ever told us enough to suit his own purposes. If we come to the wrong conclusions, well, that's our fault as mere mortals, right?

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That trope is older than the Wheel of Time series; "Aes Sedai" seems to be a play on the Irish term for fairies, Aes Sidhe, and the concept of "can't tell a direct lie, but will use exact words to trick and deceive others" has been attached to them in folklore for centuries. I'm very much inclined to assume the Ascians operate similarly even if they don't have direct orders to not lie; after all, the best lies are often the ones that are based on the truth.

Do Ascians lie? No. Does Hydaelyn lie? Yes. Almost every bit of information regarding Hydaelyn, Zodiark, The original primal & the Mother Crystal - who (If what we've been shown and heard so far is actually true?) is NOT Hydaelyn since she came AFTER both the original summoning and sundering? Is going to change. There's going to be a lot of edit work ahead for the people that contribute to all the wikis so getting information regarding these topics, and the topic surrounding if Solus himself is Emet-Selch may be pointless for current arguments/debates/disccusions. Is Solus the Ascian Emet-Selch? Or is Emet-Selch for some reason obsessed with Solus' younger appearance (That almost nobody would really know since he was a Legatus before becoming The Emperor.) that he's going so far as to make clones of to maintain his apperance that he keeps hidden away from public eye regardless.

I think an important thing to note is that the Ascians have ZERO reason to lie. They are capable of skipping between all the layered dimensions (Not alternate universes. Also an important distinction to make.) that make up the shards of the Source, they are insanely powerful and can not be killed in traditional ways. When you're that powerful you have absolutely no reason to lie, you don't care what others think or feel if it isn't to your benefit.

What exactly has Hydaelyn lied about? To my knowledge she hasn't lied about anything or told a half-truth; like the Ascians, she simply hasn't explained damn near anything. We've got all these cryptic hints from them both, but we don't really have a clear, in-depth picture of the greater conflict we were dragged into.

A close inspection of Solus briefly flashing an Ascian power-mask-rune in the launch trailer reveals that his is an inverted fragment of Zalera's glyph from XII, whose corresponding Scion of Light was Emet-Selch; this pretty much confirms that "Solus" was a persona constructed and assumed by Emet-Selch unless it's possible to elevate mortals to the status of an Ascian Overlord. He may or may not be attached to the identity, but the main reason he uses that appearance is because Varis unwittingly supplied him with an inexhaustible supply of those bodies by using his DNA to perfect Allagan cloning tech. Either way, it's unlikely Emet-Selch behaved the way he does now as "Solus."

The Ascians have plenty of reasons to lie, though by omission rather than falsification.

Elidibus: Welp, you guys shure screwed the pooch.
"Arbert": Yeah... we, uh, did what we were told and it caused a Flood of Light...
Elidibus: Your world is doomed! Unless... you go with my plan, and cause a Calamity on the Source! It'll transfuse what's left of this world's lifestream into the Source, so even if you all die your spirits will live on! Better'n being erased altogether, yeah?
(There are other ways to stop the Flood, if Shadowbringers is anything to go by.)

... joking aside, we don't have enough information from either side or evidence either way to really discern fact from fiction yet. The expansion is set to finally give us some more concrete answers now that they're (finally) done sweeping up the detritus of 1.0... so let's just be patient and wait another week.

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Originally Posted by Starblessed

Do Ascians lie? No. Does Hydaelyn lie? Yes. Almost every bit of information regarding Hydaelyn, Zodiark, The original primal & the Mother Crystal - who (If what we've been shown and heard so far is actually true?) is NOT Hydaelyn since she came AFTER both the original summoning and sundering? Is going to change. There's going to be a lot of edit work ahead for the people that contribute to all the wikis so getting information regarding these topics, and the topic surrounding if Solus himself is Emet-Selch may be pointless for current arguments/debates/disccusions. Is Solus the Ascian Emet-Selch? Or is Emet-Selch for some reason obsessed with Solus' younger appearance (That almost nobody would really know since he was a Legatus before becoming The Emperor.) that he's going so far as to make clones of to maintain his apperance that he keeps hidden away from public eye regardless.

I think an important thing to note is that the Ascians have ZERO reason to lie. They are capable of skipping between all the layered dimensions (Not alternate universes. Also an important distinction to make.) that make up the shards of the Source, they are insanely powerful and can not be killed in traditional ways. When you're that powerful you have absolutely no reason to lie, you don't care what others think or feel if it isn't to your benefit.

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Beyond the fact that we've already gone over Ascians and lies of omission - which are still very much lies - what evidence do we currently have that Hydaelyn is actively lying to us? We've barely interacted with her directly, and I don't know that we've learned anything that says she's deliberately telling us incorrect things. She could in theory also be offering lies of omission, but we really don't know either way, so it's rather foolish to state as such yet.

Not to mention, "powerful people have no reason to lie"? Powerful people lie all the time, whether in fiction or in reality. The only point at which that might prove true is if the powerful people in question are omnipotent, and Ascians most certainly are not. They are very resilient, but they definitely have been killed before, and they can't just cause calamities with a snap of their fingers, so they need to get mortal races to set up events for them to occur. Even if they haven't directly lied to us yet (that we know of), they're obviously manipulative and frame things to bring about what they want to happen, which often includes withholding information from some people to get them to act in certain ways (which is definitely a kind of lie).

Honestly, though, this feels like a troll post (and apologies if it isn't), and I'm kind of regretting responding to this already, because there isn't any real logic behind this argument.