I honestly hope they do considering introducing Yotsuyu's outfit and hair style if the development of her design was taken into consideration player character's movements. It feels a waste to have such a well detailed design be left behind once stormblood story arc ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
Love for the female characters
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02-25-2019, 10:48 AMEdwinLi
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02-25-2019, 11:07 AMIscah* fanboy or fangirl overQuote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
Also the Urianger Augerelt fan club has been in session since 3.4. (Please tell me I'm not the only one in it.) Smart enough to outplay Elidibus, and good-looking besides. And no, it isn't that hard to understand his speech patterns. -
02-25-2019, 11:29 AMLeanna
There aren't really many good female characters, Y'shtola is kind of "ok", Sadu is pretty good and Yotsuyu was the most interesting one... then she... well. It's not like SE is good at making good characters and much less at developing them.
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02-25-2019, 11:32 AMEdwinLiYotsuyu certainly has one of the most fan arts next to Y'shtola in the FF14 fanbase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanna
https://static.zerochan.net/Yotsuyu....ll.2308100.jpg -
02-25-2019, 11:38 AMLeannaThank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
Also I would like to say that the twin brats are a poor writing decision that shows how the writers at SE are unable to handle so many characters, either because lack of time / resources or because they are just bad with characters. I believe if it wasn't for the twin brats, there would be more opportunities for other characters to shine. -
02-25-2019, 12:03 PMKalise
I suppose part of the thing is the role that many female characters take. Often being essentially cameos.
Like, you've got Cirina and Sadu which are great characters. But you basically interact with them for a small section of the MSQ where you're dealing with Azim Steppe stuff and then you're done with them. (Same with Magnai who also doesn't get talked about much, despite being hilarious due to the "Search for his Moon" thing especially when Sadu teases him about it xD)
M'naago and Yugiri also take fairly minor roles in the story, often showing up and then being told they're going off to do something (The former then becomes a Custom Delivery)
Fordola has that awkward thing with her arc being at a strange intersection. Like, she was antagonist, then "This isn't even my final form!"'d come potential redemption arc and then... *Poof* Gone without a trace, we don't know if her story is over or what.
With various other side characters too, such as Kurenai/Khloe/Zhoe which are just weekly quest hubs... Alpa and J'olhmyn whom are just involved in the Beast Tribe stuff (Same with Tahla Molkoh) etc.
Meanwhile you have:
Urianger, who's been a staple character as the go-to guy for knowledge on Primals in 2.0, to the WoD arc in 3.0 and continues to be the fount of knowledge in 4.0 (Until the "Incident")
Haurchefant, who was heavily involved in how we managed to do pretty much the entirety of 3.0, not only getting us access to Ishgard but also being a frequent appearance due to how much time we spent at House Fortemps.
Thancred has also been a prominently featured person. Always the Scion that we got to see in action the most and in 4.0 he again, becomes relied upon for his unique talents (I.e. Sneaking into Imperial bases)
Estinien, Aymeric, Gosetsu and Hien are all characters that we spend a lot of time in MSQ travelling with, spending several story arcs with them, allowing us to get to know each other more (Also resulting in the whole "Aymeric goes on a date with WoL" thing)
Similarly, Alphinaud is also a majorly prominent character throughout the MSQ. Only ever really taking a back seat recently when he does that "Lets go to Garlemald, alone!" thing (Which then was cut short and now he's back, albeit incapacitated...)
Though, that isn't to say that there aren't any prominent female characters in MSQ, just that some of them have flaws (Either real or perceived) that could impact how much discussion they receive (In a positive light anyway...)
Minfilia is one that many people dislike, due to a number of reasons, like how we don't see her really doing much, that end of 2.0 mass of MSQ likely didn't help (With such interesting concepts like "Y'know who's great? My mother!") - Also, the notion that she kept asking you to come and meet her for things that could have been said over linkshell (Though, in her defence, it must be really annoying to have a conversation over linkshell with someone who doesn't like to actually speak very often... Possibly why after 2.0 all linkshell usage has someone ELSE that we're with being the one that's contacted rather than us)
Lyse is another one of those Scions that we just never really got to see doing stuff. Even in 4.0 with her arc, there's not that much focus on her change as a person. It's like, "Meet up with Resistance" > "Leader dies, puts Lyse in charge for reasons" > "BRB I'm going travelling around Othard with my husbando Hien for a bit, have fun on your own Lyse" > "Lyse gets a hot new dress" > "Wow I can't believe how much I've changed thanks to you WoL!"... My response was like... Okay? I guess? If you say so?
Krile kind of popped out of nowhere and much of her relevance seemed to have been hinging on Alphinaud. With a lot of her interactions being "Gosh, back in the day when Alphinaud did this really embarrassing thing teehee". She has since improved especially with Eureka but then she's being associated with Eureka, which is not seen in an overwhelmingly positive light...
Alisae is a good character. Though, it's possible to see her as kind of Alphinaud 2.0. Given that basically she's being used as a second Alphinaud, someone who travels with us and overcomes their insecurities thanks to observing our actions. With also, much like Krile, a significant portion of her interactions being "Gosh, my brother, Alphinaud. He exists, and I'm his sister!". I was kind of hoping she'd get a bit more independent development while Alphinaud was with the Populares, but alas, that lasted all of 1 patch and then it was all "My brother OMG!" again... Also, the ShB artwork suggests that both the twins will be featured so I'm sort of expecting her to continue to revolve around Alphinaud despite wishing she'd get more development around herself because she's so close to becoming one of the best characters in the game.
Ysayle was more annoying than anything in my opinion. Even though we spent a lot of time travelling with her like with Estinien, she seemed to be just there to scold Estinien for wanting to kill dragons (Which, absolutely makes sense given his backstory wherein he's basically Nidhogg BECAUSE of Nidhogg). Except that one time she tried to be useful and beat Ravana. Tried. With her only good arc being literally the end where she eventually has her entire belief system shattered. Which lasts all of 2 minutes because then she's killed off.
All this means that honestly, the best female characters are Tataru and Nanamo (Both Lalafel... Go figure) and Yotsuyu. With prominence within the MSQ and interesting stories and characterization.
Such as Tataru knowing she's not much of a fighter so she tries her best to make a difference within the Scions the best she can (By, uhh... Hanging around in bars >.>) so we get to see a lot of the fruits of that labour and all the skills she's trying to learn to compensate for her not being able to compare herself to the likes of Thancred and the WoL who keep coming back with these stories of beating Primals and crippling Imperial bases. So things like managing the money of the Scions, learning how to tailor so making new outfits for basically everyone, gathering information that is critical for us to go punch Primals etc.
Nanamo shows us how she likes to take breaks from being the Sultana and does things like evades her guards in the disguise of a random citizen and wanders around Ul'dah. With the SB arc where she has to deal with Rauban given how much she has relied upon him but also knows that he really cares about his homeland. She even features in some side quests, such as the Goldsmithing questline, where you help her to give back to the refugees because she feels guilty about how they've been living and how much money Ul'dah deals with (Also, with her concern about direct donations coming across poorly)
With Yotsuyu being painted as the most vile and evil person ever (Aside from maybe Zenos) and then the total flip into cute little girl wherein we get to learn how she's a product of her upbringing and just how bad she was treated to turn her into such a cruel person to the point were we actually feel sorry for her and start to get upset when her brother is trying to cause such pain to her again.
As a side note: I hope in the future we get some more involvement from Kan-E-Senna (She's 10/10 waifu material), Merlwyb (Who, despite being so badass, we don't really get to see doing much outside sitting in her office doing politics stuff) and Hilda (A great character and one that is much adored)
Hilda has some likelyhood given the Ishgard Restoration thing that's coming. I just hope for more of the Alliance Leaders being more hands on now that we have Aymeric, Lyse and Hien whom are trying to take more hands on approaches (Kan-E has also popped up here and there too. Stuff like trying to talk to the Moogles in Churning Mists for example) -
02-25-2019, 12:56 PMJaywalkerI disagree on this. From what I saw, Lyse's character arc was feeling like someone always in the shadow of others. Her father, her sister, possibly even Minfilia and Papalymo in some ways since it meant she didn't have to be independent. When she reveals her identity to the WoL and has lost every previous person she'd hidden behind, she does latch onto the player character... but in a much more introspective way, as she challenges her own shortcomings in this respect. She's also, very very notably, one of the only characters who goes out of her way to just try to have fun with or talk to the player character between quests. This isn't to bash other characters by any means, but it was a VERY interesting contrast to see her turn and treat the WoL as just a person and do things not in pursuit of a case or out of concern for the Warrior of Light as a functionary role. I actually thought that spoke well to her empathy, so her worry about whether she'd succeed in a role where she's effecting the lives of countless others read like an extension of that to me. She cares a lot about others and doesn't want to be a weak link who tries to support them only to fail. She thinks about this a lot after the first defeat by Zenos, traveling across Othard. At that stage she wasn't resistance leader either. That happened after liberating Doma. When she steps into a leadership position it is chiefly in a position as someone who can unify diverse people, which makes sense both with her experience as a Scion and as someone who is so heavily characterized by empathy. We see in her summit how she works to manage that, and while Lakshmi poses a problem she was otherwise doing very well. Rauban receives military authority, which makes sense too given that falls outside of Lyse's main expertise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Respectfully, looking at a lot of your points it looks like some of your judgment operates more on whether you personally like/would be friends with/relate to certain characters as opposed to whether those characters are effectively constructed or not. I would not be Ysayle's buddy irl, I think she's arrogant and shortsighted... which she ultimately does realize as an important factor in her character arc. But I think her arrogance and shortsightedness while having honestly noble intentions is not just interesting, but important and powerful today. She's fighting for good things but for a long time she believes wholeheartedly in slaughtering innocent people for the sins of their ancestors, which they had no control over. She doesn't think about the suffering inflicted in turn by dragons. She doesn't consider she might be wrong or might fail until Hraesvelgr shoves it in her face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
There are a LOT of real people like Ysayle. Seeing her learn humility, seeing her admit in her final transformation into Shiva that this is a product of nothing but her own hopes and dreams that she shared with others along the way, shows that she's finally learned humility. She doesn't know everything. She isn't the arbiter of good and evil, life and death. She doesn't have more answers than everyone else and her judgment is not always above theirs. But she does truly want to see people suffer less, and to enable the people--dragon and Ishgardian alike--to coexist peacefully.
While it might have been possible to pursue that further if she'd survived, I think her sacrifice both shows she is placing her faith in others with a fuller understanding of herself and the truth of war. She also shows that in her dedication to peace, this time she is willing to hold herself to the standard and put her life on the line rather than the lives of others. -
02-25-2019, 01:20 PMKaliseI get the idea behind Lyse. Why she took up Yda's name, how she was always living in the shadows of someone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker
What I never got is that during her arc where she apparently got over that thanks to the WoL, was any reason behind this.
I mean, I spoke of Alphinaud, who we see drastic change with because he's with us as we're doing, often pretty dangerous things, because we have core ideals that we hold with such determination that we will brave adversity to uphold them. So, he in turn, tries to emulate us and starts becoming more independent safe in the knowledge that should anything go wrong, we'll be there to smash some bad guys and save him. With him eventually deciding that he can be fully independent when he goes with the Populares.
Lyse... Not so much. She doesn't really hang around with us at all. She doesn't hang around with Thancred on his missions. She doesn't really get shown actually facing up to anything. Outside when she is chosen to be the leader of the Resistance. To which, she isn't shown doing much of anything to garner support or taking much action herself (Probably doesn't help that basically her entire time in the resistance is pretty much just spent knowing that Zenos can literally just walk in at any time he wishes and decimate the place, until we finish the Far East arc). Perhaps she did a ton of stuff while we were in the Far East, I don't know, we're never shown anything really.
She just ups and states how much she's changed. While I never really noticed much difference, or any reason for a difference.
I got this for Alphinaud, Nanamo, Rauban, Estinien, Alisae, Aymeric and more. But never Lyse.
Perhaps it was because of the dual arc of SB where it would have felt a bit too long and samey if we travelled around a bunch with both Hien and Lyse in both Ala Mhigo and Othard.
As far as Ysayle goes. Much of my qualms goes back to how she berates others (Estinien) for being too narrow minded, while she herself is also incredibly narrow minded. It's just annoyingly hypocritical. Especially when she's going along with the WoL and Aymeric who are literally showing her what open mindedness looks like. With Aymeric, who has every reason to hate dragons as much as Estinien, looking to try and make peace with them.
With her major turning point, the revelation offered by Hraesvelgr, happening too late into her arc that you don't really get to see much impact it has on her before she dies. -
02-25-2019, 01:47 PMLusavariHere's the thing about Fordola and Yotsuyu. Both of them have parallel stories with both characters earning a chance at redemption. However, both of them take an opposite turn. And what makes it AMAZING is that their ultimate fates are the decisions of those characters. Fordola opted to repent and join you, while Yotsuyu decided to take the destiny she was handed and fulfill it. Fordola, as is her nature, REBELLED. Don't sell Fordola short. We're not done with her story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
Yotsuyu had an amazing character arc that is almost impossible to beat though. -
02-25-2019, 02:03 PMJaywalkerIn fairness, we don't get to see the WoL say much in general haha. Such is our lot playing a heroic mime. Also, by connection with that I do think it's part of the format of the game that there's a weird disconnect between how characters say they're effected by the WoL versus what the WoL says/does (implied or directly). I interpret that as at least partially being other characters projecting what they personally need the WoL to be onto the WoL, but this still has degrees. Tbh I felt more attached to Lyse versus Alphinaud (and I do like Alphinaud) because like I mentioned Lyse actually seems to take interest/concern in the WoL as an equal, while Alphinaud does it more as someone to look up to and lean on imo. He does become independent eventually but I found it very interesting that after everything that happened with the Crystal Braves he's beating himself, a teenager, up and talking about how you are his rock and so forth when WoL hand picked the Crystal Braves. WoL was falsely accused of regicide, bound, and thrown at the feet of allies who did nothing in that moment save Rauban after rocketing to a weirdly prominent political position from obscurity. WoL basically couldn't have reacted in front of Alphinaud because two people being a mess at that point would have been disastrous. Doesn't make Alphinaud bad (imo just made him a teenager), but again it made the contrast where Lyse was actually talking to WoL like a regular person very interesting to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I actually thought Lyse hung out with the player a LOT once Stormblood started. She goes with us and sees the atrocities committed first in Gyr Abania, then in Othard. She sees the hostility and mistrust people show her and the WoL both when they offer help, that the scions and WoL can be beaten and can lead people to slaughter, that members of their order (Krile) are not safe from capture and experimentation. She sees everything with Yotsuyuu prior to her return. She helps form allies and overcome enemies countless times, and between every encounter there were scenes where she just talks to the WoL reflecting on what's going on. This all contributes to her development. I do think her persistence in reaching out to people despite rejections and misgivings (both from them and herself, because helping is too important to allow self-doubt to stop her), her remaining kind despite how easy it would be to lose that and become jaded, and her perspective/hope all spoke well to her character and worthiness to lead. Granted, again I think she's way better as a diplomat than a military mind. But I do think the pieces were all there.
For what it's worth, and I'm not saying you have to do this, there have been times I was initially :/// on a character but changed my mind after seeing an alternate reading of the same scenes. If you feel like it and can find cutscenes it might be fun to look back sometime and trace how things shift over time. When I do that it feels like discovering something. If you just don't like Lyse that's fine though!
I remember Lyse traveling through both Ala Mhigo and Othard though. There were really distinct scenes in both areas. Hien wasn't always around in both areas but Lyse was pretty consistent. Idk if something isn't translating through text on this?
Haha this circles back to the personal like/dislike versus whether or not a character's effective thing. I didn't like that Ysayle berated Estinien either and agree it made her hypocritical. That's still interesting and authentic characterization though! Being annoyed with her is totally fair lol, but technically speaking as a character acting the way a person believably would act she is rock solid there. And I agree, I personally like Aymeric more as a person and find him more heroic. Not talking about Ysayle as heroic though. IMO she qualifies pretty well as anti-hero. Estinien is more outright heroic than she is, particularly when he keeps reiterating that he'll only murder Nidhogg if there's no other way despite his personal vendetta.
I do disagree that Aymeric has as much reason to hate dragons as Estinien though, I mean Estinien's whole family was murdered by Nidhogg.
I disagree on not seeing the impact of Ysayle's sacrifice as well for the reasons I explained in previous post, but I do agree it would have been nice to see that paced out more. Suspect the team was hitting time/budget constraints with everything they wanted to include in HW.