SE when are you going to add new PVP actions?

Ah, Fannah, Skewer already lowers attack and healing potency by 10%. If they wanted they could simply add Weapon Throw's Heavy onto Spineshatter Dive (since the stun from that was removed).

And Monk's now removed Arm of the Destroyer was a silence before. Maybe Somersault can become that silence? It would remind me of the old Axe Kick giving a pacification debuff.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There wasn't much in the way of realistic counterplay to getting stunned. You had purify, that was it. What CC did was make it so that you had to commit to every attack because you couldn't escape, and if you got caught out of position, you often couldn't act at all. Feast it didn't matter, but fronlines it did.

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Once again, that's not quite right, Riyah. You had a better chance of surviving cc in Frontlines than the Feast - where damage was a lot more coordinated and focused. As for counterplay for getting stunned, you've seen the videos. Melees OPENED with stun and that didn't stop me. Putting personal capabilities aside for a moment, yes, you were supposed to commit to every attack. Who attacks without the intent to take down the target? Sure, there's feints and attacks just to distract or irritate someone, but when it came to bursting, you did it with the intent to eliminate your target. CC was a viable tool in either making it happen, OR preventing it from happening. Getting caught out of position happens, I'm notorious for doing that myself. But it's part of strategy to put your opponent in a disadvantageous situation.

Attempts to perhaps try to reduce that have only created bigger issues, and this is why people want to see more skills returned. We want to be able to exercise good strategy instead of simply pushing our 9 buttons faster than the other guy. We want that depth that rewards skill back.

Thank you both for your answer^^

About Silence for Monks (on their dash) :
Think of it as a whole in the kit. As a Monk, once you have all your Chakra and Greased Lightning stacks, it can happen you want to be able to just dash on your target and use all your burst while blocking all possible counters from their oGCD i.e opponent's heal/shield/knockback/root/heavy/stun/silence/sprint/safeguard/backflip to leave you, so everything that can prevent you from doing what you have to (your target allies can still come to protect their friend by stunning you, Holmgang you etc).
So yes, I would like a silence on a dash for them unlike what you seem to think. It's not a hard CC as in the PvE version of it and it has sense in their bursting kit.
With a Ninja, it would be awesome, the Monk's dash would be like a signal (with a burst macro before to help), so the Ninja Shukuchi instantly on the healer (thx macro again), they both do what they have to to burst him, the Ninja stuns with Bhavacackra as the end of the silence, and it's done.

You can also just use it at melee if you want (you don't have to always engage with their gap closer). And as I said earlier, it can also be put on the 2nd dash, so you can keep it to just use it the moment you need. I am looking for a solution adding tools with some sense without adding skills. "The Forbidden Chakra" could also be a good skill giving Silence while making sense (it's one of the main skill you use to burst).
If you want to add a skill, we can also think of One Ilm Punch that would just Silence instead of Stun (+ by passing the Silence resistance like in PvE? haha).


About Heavy on DRG's Skewer (don't worry, I know it lowers dmg and heals from the target :3 ) :
Ah yes, on Spineshatter Dive it would also be a good idea :) Both could be nice, it's just that I feel like the 60sec CD of Skewer would be more fair than the 15sec Spineshatter Dive CD.

For Riyah, canceling a Sprint can't happen if the enemy doesn't Sprint, and then can use Sprint right after. Especially that it's an optionnal move for some classes. Maybe blocking the possibility to use any PvP skill (so Sprint/Safeguard/Enliven etc) would be better than just "Cancel Sprint if you already used it" which is way too niche. The new pvp system want to still get rid of small niche details.
And Skewer can't be used in a way you keep it until the enemy uses his dash, its base function is not to do that, it's more to lower what an opponent can do (dmg and heal) and help the burst (by lowering heals + inflict dmg), so Heavy would also prevent him from running too much and forces the fight a bit.

Fannah, the thing is though you don't want to have to choose between using a move as a gap closer and using it as a silence. This is kind of what forced all CC moves into doing no damage; moves like leg sweep and fluid aura used to do damage as well, so people often used them for damage first, screwing up stun resistances. Also, I really am not a fan of "totally kill an enemies movement." We need it for mounts since they can outrun players easily, but excessive heavy means you want players to die and home point whenever there's an imbalance.That will make players a lot more wary of engagements and trust more in numbers.

I actually think we'd be really good if they just lowered healing potency. I mean, the fights aren't all that bad as it is, its just healer sustain that screws it up.

It's worth noting that it's always been a rule in Frontlines that if you're hit riding a mount, you'll get a heavy debuff. They renamed it "Limp" in 4.0. So you don't need to actually use a heavy on a player trying to ride past/away. Just attack them.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Fannah, the thing is though you don't want to have to choose between using a move as a gap closer and using it as a silence.

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You maybe don't realize it but it's not really nice to speak with you : "you don't want to choose". You say things that are not true like they were.
Following you, you believe SE's team didn't want to choose between highly damaging and controlling for 2 sec when they made Ninja's Bhavacakra inflicting 2500 dmg and a 2 sec stun.
Same for Wind tackle in PvE which has a stun. And I just ask to add a silence instead because it makes sense in their kit imo. I doubt SE did gave a stun to their gap closer because SE "didn't want to choose between" like if they were lazy.

It's just game design, in order to make a whole system working. I even explained you the purpose of it, while taking in count SE prefer to don't add any new skill. I even told you we could add a new skill to silence thx to One Ilm Punch, but you seemed to forgot it, it's not like I didn't talk about other ways as a narrow minded person.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Also, I really am not a fan of "totally kill an enemies movement."

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Well, it's just a Silence, not even a Stun, the enemy can still run. Ninjas have silence/stun/heavy/root (and just have to choose between heavy or root on top of the two others).

Btw, it's just a 500 dmg move, I believe it's mainly a gap closer than a damaging tool, even if both dash make a total of 1000, which is significant when in need of burst.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I actually think we'd be really good if they just lowered healing potency. I mean, the fights aren't all that bad as it is, its just healer sustain that screws it up.

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Egh, it's just the obvious start.

There are several other issues buried underneath that Elephant in the room and not just balancing ones. The fight design is shallow, there are very few "if"s in the equation and fights quickly become little more than a throughput race, which would become a lot more obvious if healers didn't make everything other than burst useless. And CC isn't a solution to that, because CC only sets the enemy back in the race - The track still doesn't have any curves.

CC is a decent enough punishment for making a mistake to allow for follow-up - every fighting game lets you stagger after taking a hit - but imagine a fighting game in which staggering, dodging, blocking and countering aren't a thing. That's what this game is like - if the enemy is in range, most of your skills will have their full effect regardless of what the enemy does, CC included. In the fighting game analogy, some characters would simply be able to disable your punches/kicks/jumps/grapples/counters or whatever. And you don't even need to aim them either. It's shallow, skills simply don't have much conditionals attached. "If cliff, then knockback" is already advanced in this game.

So yeah, it's simply true that the game lacks depth. Adding CC just isn't going to give it more, adding CC just makes it easier to deal with existing imbalances. Even a fat cripple can win a race against a professional athlete if you tie the latter up after all, in spite of the latter vastly outperforming the prior. That's CC for you.

I'm not sure the analogy with fighting games works for me.

Like, they really only became big because the depth from systems was shallow. SF 2 and MK 2 were about as good as they got in terms of balance and accessibility through the core systems. They started to improve on that by making them deeper, richer experience, but ironically the deeper the game, the worse it kind of got. If you picked maybe the two best fighting games after, SF3 Third Strike and Virtua Fighter 3, you have these really rich and deep systems that sort of failed to attract a core mass of semi-skilled players. Many games that came after only managed to get a decent audience due to other reasons; Soul Calibur was graphics and guest characters. Even now, most of the activity in fighting games wound up being really shallow flashy Naruto and DBZ fighters. Richer ones like Guilty Gear or Blazblue still end up niche for skilled people, except for when GG Xrd turned the graphics up to amazing levels.

So i mean yeah, you can try and make pvp more deep in that sense, but fighting games showed me that it tends to be hard to do, because its very easy to make these really rich systems full of play and counter play that just shut everyone else but the top players out. If you think the average player is bad now, it has nothing compared to the average game player of something like Soul Calibur or Tekken. They'd get owned just by wakeup games, and have issues getting summon suffering off reliably.

Problem is that if combo game is too hard to learn ppl quit fast because they are too lazy learn these comboes. I have Tekken 7 myself and I personally quit that game because I was too lazy learn all these stable comboes etc. It all depends how much you wanna spend time on the game. Like if you wanna play casually I really liked lot One Piece Burning Blood because comboes are lot easier execute and game is more centered around neutral game than combo game. Blade And Soul pvp system is really good as well, but take months for me learn that game properly at the point I could enjoy the game. Playing against summoners with blade master was really frustrating first half year. In this game it is more likely how you position yourself around the map and when you coordinate your burst and cc together. If healers would be weaker, it would only mean you would need less coordination and game would be even more braindead button smashing.

Again, I have to say the old system was neither hard to learn, nor understand. The problem is, people didn't want to. Gearing for PvP wasn't hard: if you still had anything from a previous gear tier, then put on what had the secondary skills you wanted, and maybe a fending accessory for a little more HP. Too many buttons? Learn the ones that are most effective to reduce enemy HP in a short window and use them. They were the same buttons and largely did the same thing they did in PvE. PvP skills? Read them, find what works best for the situation, and use them effectively, again, just like in PvE.

People weren't attracted to PvP because of how watered down it was to PvE. We were attracted by the challenge and ability to use our same skillsets in a more dynamic environment, against other players and not simplified programmed patterns.

cool, then lets go back to a system no one wanted to learn then. That's a great idea.