Sam and Mnk need more than Diversion

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

idk, I think there are more pressing matters with MNK than the threat issue, even more so when we consider MNKs threat issue has existed since 2.0.

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Assuming they do ever fix the rest of MNK's toolkit, wouldn't that just make threat on MNK more pressing an issue?
It's better to nip the problem in the bud now, even if the bud is a few years old lol.

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Originally Posted by Sora_Oathkeeper

It's because they have to actually lose a lot to maintain it if they're not circle shirking one another. It's not just a case of provoke and aggro combo. It's a case of, they need to waste a GCD if they're a DRK or PLD to go into tank stance. and then aggro combo. this causes issues rotationally for them because it consumes MP which they expend on Holy spirit rotation. Or just extra dps for the drk. Also aggro combos suck for dps. If people think a voke and aggro combo without tank stance will do anything to a monk or sam's enmity they are mistaken. They're only delaying the inevitable and in optimal gameplay you really don't want to aggro combo for obvious reasons.

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The wasted GCD complaint is hardly valid. A competent tank should be watching the agro list, and if they see a DPS creeping up too close, they should proactively adjust to make sure the DPS doesn't take off that hate. Especially in roulette situations, you shouldn't expect that unknown DPS have enmity reducing tools equipped, or that they will use them. When running with people you know, you can adjust to what you know of those players. Not saying DPS shouldn't be attempting to mitigate their agro, but the tank's primary job is to hold hate. If they fail to do that, then they have failed.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Assuming they do ever fix the rest of MNK's toolkit, wouldn't that just make threat on MNK more pressing an issue?
It's better to nip the problem in the bud now, even if the bud is a few years old lol.

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Well, if they do work on it is already assuming too much at this point. But I agree with you, if we aren't going to receive any substantial update.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The wasted GCD complaint is hardly valid. A competent tank should be watching the agro list, and if they see a DPS creeping up too close, they should proactively adjust to make sure the DPS doesn't take off that hate

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The wasted gcd isnt exactly the issue im talking about. Its the punishment you get from using that gcd to go back into tank stance. I by all means agree that tanks should manage aggro and any dps that doesnt take an enmity reducing skill is an idiot for raid content. Which is specifically what the OP is talking about and in a pug party too. This is why nin will forever be in the meta outside of TA. The sheer extra aggro on tanks that make aggro so much easier to manage and remain only dpsing. It doesnt change the fact that mnk and sam still suffer with terrible enmity control

Why do we need a enmity-reductive CD, best paired with dps CDs, in the first place, instead of just passive enmity siphoning on the part of any and all tanks?

A DPS desires enmity reduction 99% of the time. Diversion, one would think based on its name, would refer to the 1% in which they need to detract enmity from where it'd normally go, grabbing enmity off healers or another DPS in cases of emergency.

A Tank desires enmity augmentation 99% of the time. Shirk, one would think, would then be a much more powerful but temporary tool for that remaining 1% of the time, not a tool to simply pad 25% additional MT enmity every CD.

The prior takes no additional thought, and the latter takes thought only in the situations where that increase came at the expense of actually having to use (or not use) an enmity combo to swap in (or out) -- where its use for a smooth transition would cost a Shirk cast over whatever portion of the fight in which DPS might still eclipse tank enmity (if the tank-under-focus continued not to use enmity tools, in favor of more DPS).

Wasn't the whole point of SB pruning allegedly that if an ability (a) provided no additional thought or identity and (b) promoted bar-watching despite this, it should be pruned? Why, then, did they add further skills to the opposite effect?

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

If your spamming your aggro combo, yeah sure.

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To be honest tank/healer dps is fine as long as they don’t cause problems to the grp members (low hp and enmity). Hate that the mentality changed so much that more and more healer/tanks sacrifice other player just for their „support“ dps...

Own experinces f.e are a death by DOT dmg (62% of max lp) and a kick in ivalice for multiple aggro steal on 2nd boss...

Tanks shouldn't always spam aggro combos dps should have the tools to to decrease they own eminity

MNK should have passive reduced enmity generation on Fists, while SAM has it on their gap closer/backstep.

Both Diversion AND Lucid should both dump enmity AND generate half enmity for the duration of the buff, as well as Tactician/Refresh.


Furthermore, I would say that all melee jobs should get a "mini" Shadewalker rather than diversion, even, or a "shirk" that can ONLY transfer 20% of current enmity to the target's current highest enmity target.

IDEA: Make Yaten --> Enpi --> Gyoten combo and enmity reducer!