Suggestion to combat Mentors intentionally inviting RMT Advertisers

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Originally Posted by aesteval

I think the menu options for Add to Blacklist and Invite to Novice Network are right next to each other. Accidents definitely do happen. Can't personally speak on your case, but uncomfortable close menu options are a thing.

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I actually don't bother blacklisting them unless I am going to be where they are spamming say channel for a bit, and then I remove them later since keeping them blacklisted only ends up wasting space on that list. The only thing I do in response to their spam is report them.

As for when they get into Novice Network, they advertise once and leave each time.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

I actually don't bother blacklisting them unless I am going to be where they are spamming say channel for a bit, and then I remove them later since keeping them blacklisted only ends up wasting space on that list. The only thing I do in response to their spam is report them.
As for when they get into Novice Network, they advertise once and leave each time.

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Thought so, see you are missing the point, missing the big picture and only requesting something based on what is most convenient to you and to your server. The point aesteval was making is that someone can make the mistake of inviting them, instead of blacklisting. With your proposed change, this would lead to kick abuse on people simply making a mistake. Has nothing to do what you do to deal with RMT.

And again, my idea gets around that, sure you might not be able give them the 30 min block (and this is pointless to the real end goal anyway, and that is getting rid of the RMT bots) We can propose a right click function of kick and block from the novice network due to RMT (bring up a warning message for this, that the GM will come after you if you abuse it) and make it streamline to having these bots reported and taken care of.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Thought so, see you are missing the point, missing the big picture and only requesting something based on what is most convenient to you and to your server. The point aesteval was making is that someone can make the mistake of inviting them, instead of blacklisting. With your proposed change, this would lead to kick abuse on people simply making a mistake. Has nothing to do what you do to deal with RMT.

And again, my idea gets around that, sure you might not be able give them the 30 min block (and this is pointless to the real end goal anyway, and that is getting rid of the RMT bots) We can propose a right click function of kick and block from the novice network due to RMT (bring up a warning message for this, that the GM will come after you if you abuse it) and make it streamline to having these bots reported and taken care of.

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Perhaps you don't recall awhile back someone posted a thread about someone letting RMT Advertisers into the Novice Network on their server as well. I can assure you it was not my server that person was speaking of. Furthermore I only spoke of what I do personally, not other Mentors. Also we can block RMT Advertisers from Novice Network all we want, but that won't stop them from making their new character like they always do to get around it.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Perhaps you don't recall awhile back someone posted a thread about someone letting RMT Advertisers into the Novice Network on their server as well. I can assure you it was not my server that person was speaking of. Furthermore I only spoke of what I dopersonally, not other Mentors. Also we can block RMT Advertisers from Novice Network all we want, but that won't stop them from making their new character like they always do to get around it.

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You are MISSING THE POINT! your proposed idea is not a fix, I am trying to help you figure out a better solution to propose. It does not matter what someone made a thread on what, that reply does not address what I said.

I know you where talking about you do, my point was, it was not the point of the post you where quoting. Someone goes to right click blacklist > sees name of so in so's invite > people kick the mentor because the invited was RMT > KICK ABUSE BECAUSE it was a misclick meant to blacklist the person. All it does is provoke name shaming and kick abuse. If your server is as pure as you say it is, you shouldn't even being proposing that idea in the first place because it does not address the ROOT of the problem. Meaning if we assume no one is toxic on your server, then all invites are based on mistakes, this means we need to target the RMT! not the people inviting them. Even though Seryne showed it can be easy read though, well not everyone is sharp to catch it.

This is why I proposed an auto report to GMs while banning the person from chat, if this feature is abused then the GM goes after the abuser, its very simple, and ofc have that warning pop up in case of miss-clicks.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

You are MISSING THE POINT! your proposed idea is not a fix, I am trying to help you figure out a better solution to propose. It does not matter what someone made a thread on what, that reply does not address what I said.
I know you where talking about you do, my point was, it was not the point of the post you where quoting. Someone goes to right click blacklist > sees name of so in so's invite > people kick the mentor because the invited was RMT > KICK ABUSE BECAUSE it was a misclick meant to blacklist the person. All it does is provoke name shaming and kick abuse. If your server is as pure as you say it is, you shouldn't even being proposing that idea in the first place because it does not address the ROOT of the problem. Meaning if we assume no one is toxic on your server, then all invites are based on mistakes, this means we need to target the RMT! not the people inviting them. Even though Seryne showed it can be easy read though, well not everyone is sharp to catch it.

This is why I proposed an auto report to GMs while banning the person from chat, if this feature is abused then the GM goes after the abuser, its very simple, and ofc have that warning pop up in case of miss-clicks.

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If a Mentor kicks another Mentor over inviting an RMT Advertiser and has only done it once and is not repeating then someone is indeed abusing their kick power and has no business being a Novice Network Mentor in the first place. Furthermore, anyone that is like that is already in a position to abuse their power and would not be given further reason to do so, which means they have already done enough to be reported for power abuse. Also you seem quite intent on the whole naming and shaming bit. If anyone tries to use this suggestion for that it means they name and shame already and, quite frankly, are not to be taken seriously if said naming and shaming is a constant and unfounded. Furthermore, this idea is not intended to get someone in trouble if they did invite the RMT Advertiser while not knowing that is what they are. If it is used for such then whoever filed the report is the one who should be reported.

Yes Coeurl is a nice and friendly server but that does not mean we are free of people who would do wrong. We also do not know if there even is anyone intentionally inviting the RMT Advertisers so they can drop their add. The whole reason I made this suggestion is to see if one Mentor is repeatedly inviting the RMT Advertiser rather than them being invited by accident or request of the RMT Advertiser with the Mentor not knowing who they are because they use name generator to get a legit character name.

As a matter of fact, I daresay your concerns are not as founded as you may think since some servers are closed anyway and don't get new people to invite to Novice Network that often, or deal with new characters bypassing bans/blacklists. And even if your concerns are founded Square Enix would have to look over every single invitation to the Novice Network to pinpoint a Mentor worthy of banning from the Novice Network without someone reporting the incidents. My idea basically would save both Mentors and GMs time is all. I'm sorry if your server has you so conditioned to think the worst.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

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On the internet, especially stuff like this, you have to assume the worst. I can't back the idea because of the abuse it would bring to some servers. Princess's idea would save mentors time, as you can have the RMT reported and kicked in one fell swoop. Hey, even include the mentor who invited them in the report automatically. But RMT is something that needs to be brought to the GMs attention, so they know the characters doing it and can act on it. Saving the GMs time on this isn't something you should be doing. They cannot police every single character, you absolutely have to point out the RMT to them. Especially given how FFXIV doesn't have the staff for live GMs doing rounds banning as they see.

Louisoix is a bit like your server, nice, friendly, and supportive. But let's be fair, the internet has the tendency to bring out the worst in people because of the perceived anonymity they have.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

On the internet, especially stuff like this, you have to assume the worst. I can't back the idea because of the abuse it would bring to some servers. Princess's idea would save mentors time, as you can have the RMT reported and kicked in one fell swoop. Hey, even include the mentor who invited them in the report automatically. But RMT is something that needs to be brought to the GMs attention, so they know the characters doing it and can act on it. Saving the GMs time on this isn't something you should be doing. They cannot police every single character, you absolutely have to point out the RMT to them. Especially given how FFXIV doesn't have the staff for live GMs doing rounds banning as they see.

Louisoix is a bit like your server, nice, friendly, and supportive. But let's be fair, the internet has the tendency to bring out the worst in people because of the perceived anonymity they have.

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The thing is though (at least when it happens on our server) the RMT Advertiser leaves after advertising. If we did kick them it would probably automatically re-invite them after awhile anyway. Even if it didn't, it still does about as good as reporting them when you see them spamming say or shouting their ad. The only way to stop a Mentor from intentionally inviting an RMT Advertiser into the Novice Network knowing full well that is what they are is to indeed ban the Mentor from the Novice Network, but it's hard to prove a single Mentor is doing such a thing since we don't know who invites the RMT Advertiser. It could be by accident, it could be because the RMT Advertiser asked to be invited and the Mentor was unaware they were one, and these factors make it hard to know if it is deliberate or accidental. I also doubt Square Enix would appreciate a report that turned out to be false lol

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Originally Posted by Joe777

I also doubt Square Enix would appreciate a report that turned out to be false lol

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That is assuming that the report would be false. But RMT reports tend to not be false. Plus, include the usual "baseless/malicious reports will get you in trouble" shpeel that already exists on the report RMT option. But, if SE notices a pattern of an individual mentor frequently inviting these RMT players in, they can intervene. That's why I suggested including the name of the inviting mentor on the RMT player's report automatically. SE can then chat with the player to say be careful, ban that player from being able to invite to the Novice Network, whatever they deem fit. That said, it also makes sure the power isn't in the players hands who are almost certainly going to abuse it, at least on certain servers, something SE doesn't like to get involved in because of player politics. Plus, in doing so, once the report is sent, it can ban them from being re-invited even if they've left (unless the report is proven false, then the GM can lift it).

For the player politics side of things, one need only look at Duty Finder and how most kicks are treated as simply "Playstyle differences", and nothing gets done. This just shows that SE doesn't like to get involved in player politics.

EDIT: Allow me to clarify. You would be reporting the person who put the RMT spam in the NN to the GMs, and in that report, would include the mentor who invited them.

It has just come to my attention that anyone with a crown, whether in the Novice Network or not, can send people invites to join the Novice Network. This needs changing. It should be made so that only Mentors actually in the Novice Network can invite people into it. Right now the way it is with invites makes it easy for anyone with a crown to fly under the radar and invite the RMT Advertisers. It also makes it hard to detect who is inviting them, and spread the knowledge not to when the RMT Advertiser asks, in the event the Mentor is unaware of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

If a Mentor kicks another Mentor over inviting an RMT Advertiser and has only done it once and is not repeating then someone is indeed abusing their kick power and has no business being a Novice Network Mentor in the first place. Furthermore, anyone that is like that is already in a position to abuse their power and would not be given further reason to do so, which means they have already done enough to be reported for power abuse.Also you seem quite intent on the whole naming and shaming bit. If anyone tries to use this suggestion for that it means they name and shame already and, quite frankly, are not to be taken seriously if said naming and shaming is a constant and unfounded. Furthermore, this idea is not intended to get someone in trouble if they did invite the RMT Advertiser while not knowing that is what they are. If it is used for such then whoever filed the report is the one who should be reported.

Yes Coeurl is a nice and friendly server but that does not mean we are free of people who would do wrong. We also do not know if there even is anyone intentionally inviting the RMT Advertisers so they can drop their add. The whole reason I made this suggestion is to see if one Mentor is repeatedly inviting the RMT Advertiser rather than them being invited by accident or request of the RMT Advertiser with the Mentor not knowing who they are because they use name generator to get a legit character name.

As a matter of fact, I daresay your concerns are not as founded as you may think since some servers are closed anyway and don't get new people to invite to Novice Network that often, or deal with new characters bypassing bans/blacklists. And even if your concerns are founded Square Enix would have to look over every single invitation to the Novice Network to pinpoint a Mentor worthy of banning from the Novice Network without someone reporting the incidents. My idea basically would save both Mentors and GMs time is all. I'm sorry if your server has you so conditioned to think the worst.

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hmm again I have to say point missed. You are simply ignoring my idea for no reason. If you want a proper debate, you are supposed to list the pros and cons of yours and compare them to the pros and cons of mine. It is your view we should ignore the risks of power abuse, and this being the internet that is laughable. When I see mentors kick other mentors purely from disagreeing with them, you have to question if your utopia view transverse all servers, and it is likely a biased view. To be unwilling to accept there is a chance of abuse is mind boggling to me. Despite all that ignoring all that, you did not address the crucial point I had to you. Your suggestion does not attack the root problem at all, and assuming people are intentionally inviting RMT Advertisers. This alone destroys your own argument that your sever is a utopia where no one will abuse the power you are proposing to give people.

The fact you stated "The thing is though (at least when it happens on our server) the RMT Advertiser leaves after advertising" shows you are completely ignoring my suggestion. Why is this? why are you not recognizing my idea at all and commenting at that and just defending yours? I am not dismissing this is a problem, just your solution while trying to help with a better one.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

This is why I proposed an auto report to GMs while banning the person from chat, if this feature is abused then the GM goes after the abuser, its very simple, and ofc have that warning pop up in case of miss-clicks.

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Oh I forgot a part of it, it is in one of my past posts but basically it is also my idea for this, when you click on this option "report and dismiss for RMT" it also bans them from returning, giving this debuff even if they left already. This will flag an urgency GM report so they take care of it with in 10 mins or so like most reports that are seen as such. Allow gms to at least temp ban people on the spot right away for RMT advertisings.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

On the internet, especially stuff like this, you have to assume the worst. I can't back the idea because of the abuse it would bring to some servers. Princess's idea would save mentors time, as you can have the RMT reported and kicked in one fell swoop. Hey, even include the mentor who invited them in the report automatically. But RMT is something that needs to be brought to the GMs attention, so they know the characters doing it and can act on it. Saving the GMs time on this isn't something you should be doing. They cannot police every single character, you absolutely have to point out the RMT to them. Especially given how FFXIV doesn't have the staff for live GMs doing rounds banning as they see.

Louisoix is a bit like your server, nice, friendly, and supportive. But let's be fair, the internet has the tendency to bring out the worst in people because of the perceived anonymity they have.

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This^

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Originally Posted by Joe777

It has just come to my attention that anyone with a crown, whether in the Novice Network or not, can send people invites to join the Novice Network. This needs changing. It should be made so that only Mentors actually in the Novice Network can invite people into it. Right now the way it is with invites makes it easy for anyone with a crown to fly under the radar and invite the RMT Advertisers. It also makes it hard to detect who is inviting them, and spread the knowledge not to when the RMT Advertiser asks, in the event the Mentor is unaware of the situation.

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Yes that was pointed out earlier. More reason for me to support dismissing your "solution" you just want to name shame people/target people.