how does it feel to be rejected in raid party?

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'm gonna be frank - unless O4S is some kind of monster, our group has yet to meet any DPS check in Omega Savage that has been problematic for our group, and we have a MCH instead of a BRD.

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When I cleared o4s last week, it was close enough of a dps check that our clear would've been a wipe if I was a machinist instead of a bard. We killed him just as the hard enrage cast completed, so it doesn't get any closer than that.

As people get more gear it will be less of an issue, but boy I'm glad I didn't stick to my machinist for progression in week 1, I would've let my raid down.

I actually think BLM is pulling a bit more DPS than SAM is now...

Hasn't it already been proven by some reliable sources that a MCH can pull comparable numbers to a BRD, albeit with a bit more work perhaps? (Don't chime in with the support thing, please. Unless support kills a boss, in the end the damage done is what really matters.)

No offense, but I call BS on the idea that your clear would've been a wipe purely if you'd have gone as a MCH instead of a BRD. Congrats on the clear all the same.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

No offense, but I call BS on the idea that your clear would've been a wipe purely if you'd have gone as a MCH instead of a BRD. Congrats on the clear all the same.

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yeah I think the same way... if you clear something close to enrage everybody have to improve for farming not just "the weakest" dd in comp. blaming the short-to-enrage dps isnt a single member issue but a whole grp issue in general - sure it is easier in progress to take the most effective cls but after the clear knowing the mechanics you should be able to clear/farm it with any cls - if not, just back to first sentence "everybody has to improve" ^^

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Hasn't it already been proven by some reliable sources that a MCH can pull comparable numbers to a BRD, albeit with a bit more work perhaps? (Don't chime in with the support thing, please. Unless support kills a boss, in the end the damage done is what really matters.)

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Current data on FF Logs shows MCH and BRD close to even for some fights, and BRD sometimes significantly beating MCH on others. I am not sure how much of this is due to a combination of lucky crits and multi-dotting vs. the party padding the BRD's numbers with buffs, but the best BRD run of O3S at the moment is 500 DPS better than the best MCH run. (There are also 10x as many BRD parses as MCH parses, so take that with a grain of salt. ...Or the truckload you probably already have as a MCH player.)

Regarding support, excluding damage buffs (which BRD does provide very slightly more of), support doesn't directly help you beat enrage, but it does help. Every death means less damage. I am working on O3S at the moment as a BRD, and BRD can mitigate damage in ways that MCH cannot. MCH is great for taking the edge off tankbusters and raidwide damage spikes, but the really scary parts for my group are the constant offtank damage during White Flame and the raidwide damage from books. I can provide 10% mitigation for the entirety of both as BRD, while MCH can only mitigate some of the time until the add dies, and cannot mitigate books at all due to lack of a target. MCH has nothing like the healing buff that BRD can provide to aid in healing the offtank during add phases, and I've saved some people from burning to death after screwing up dodging the fire spell with my status cleanse. Maybe none of this matters of your party has good gear and never make mistakes, but neither of those things are true for me right not.

Troubadour has been way more useful than dismantle in o4s from what I've seen so far. The 30s long duration is insane and at various points in the fight it covers not one but multiple consecutive mechanics. Now it could be just luck so far, maybe some fights have mechanic timings or combinations of mechanics that favour dismantle over troubadour, who knows? I won't chalk this one up as a win for bard as it could go either way.

However, there are some issues that go beyond just timing and luck. Some testing by people in a discord I'm in seems to indicate that the enrage punches near the end of the fight function like holy bleed in a12s too, where the damage comes from an invisible entity and is not affected by debuffs on the primary boss. Troubadour really shines there since it's a party buff, while dismantle does nothing - the target requirement of dismantle is a liability I have pointed out multiple times in the past. Who knows what other mechanics function similarly, but we don't know about because people don't test for it?

Minne also puts in some work letting you pull off gimmicks like giving your scholar an extra padded adlo-deploy. You can't discount these things as not contributing to fight success, less healing needed means more time for healers to DPS, and bigger safety margins are important in a fight where a single death means you won't meet the enrage timer.

As for their straightforward raid DPS contribution, it's pretty close wasn't it? You have hypercharge on one hand, vs 2% crit constantly up, plus 3% damage up foes and 15% dhit buffs on demand. I believe bard has a slight edge here, the last time someone did the math - I'll take their word for it but I'm happy to see someone try to recalculate it. The point is, you need every edge you can get no matter how small it might be, and that goes for the personal DPS both jobs bring as well.

Also, I'm told that the moogle that sits on my shoulder and adds up my damage isn't correctly factoring in the effect of direct hit on dots as well - which means that any bard numbers you might be seeing could be an underestimation as well.

The support and easier dmg output is exactly why people are taking brd instead of mch for savage progression. Which sadly no matter how you look at it certain jobs are going to be the best for learning fights due to less punishing kits.

I've been playing mch almost exclusively and have not had a single party exclude me for being mch, whether it's for savage or ex primals or whatever. I've also never had anyone make negative comments about my class or my damage. Killed ex primals around 60 times or so each and gotten to v3s both last week and this week and then ran v1s a couple extra times for fun, and not once has my class caused any negativity at all. I think people here are grossly overstating how big of an issue this is. If you know how to play you will be first or second highest dps in most party finder groups anyway.

I certainly don't dispute the amount of support or less-convoluted approach to damage a BRD offers one bit. Those are things I always loved and still do about the job. I only have issue with the misconception that their support (won't include damage due to sometimes similar numbers) is absolutely needed for progression. It's great to have, and no one would question that, but it is entirely possible to progress even without it.

I saw a recent calculation in which bard's rDPS contribution seems to be almost double that of MCH's :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...24/unknown.png

Take this for a grant of salt but I do believe that 2% constant crit buff is much more that what people usually credit it for