The way wariors feel about pld

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I think we should be in favor of jobs being balanced rather than having FoTM jobs.

"it has always been the other way around"
You might want to take a look at 2.0 WAR lol. No damage reduction on IB, no damage reduction on Vengeance, healing bonus dependent on wrath stacks, etc.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...0_war/diduw1j/

http://i.imgur.com/W6SejQS.png

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Warrior was my second main in HW lmao ofc i want it to be fixed but you won't believe how often I had to gear 'pld switch to war :/' or 'pld is useless can u switch to your warrrior' when i wanted to play pld

So yeah i am having quite the Schadenfreude with the current situation but don't even think for a second i want this imbalance to be permanent when i want it fixed with the next patch

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Originally Posted by Lyth

snip).

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I'm sorry but the only time pld was ever viable during coil was when it was on farm and your group needed it for solo tanking. Pld was always tossed to the curb because
their utility being too nich, then the HW dps checks came in and pld was put even farther on the back burner. Now that war isn't leading the charge as "THE" go to tank I'm not gonna say sry to you all, not gonna say better luck next patch just gonna say

"SUCK IT"

About time that pld defensive kit and utility outshines war pure dps kit.
However I am shocked that SE took away the sustain abilities from war. Better luck next patch.

Does everyone posting just not know what any job does at all? Warrior's pure dps kit? What? Did you just see that they don't wear a shield and assume that they don't have defense skills?

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Originally Posted by Gravton

Yup, tanking is boring now. At least maxing our damage was a form of personal progress. What do we have to strive for now? Popping a cd when you see a cast bar and moar flash? Woopie. People play to have fun....all the tanks leaving should tell you something. Everquest tanking is no longer fun.

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This. This. This. I really couldn't have said it better my self, thank you so much...

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Originally Posted by Donaria

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Hello. I'm not sure whose post you're replying to or projecting at, because it certainly isn't mine. I'm not a WAR main, nor have I been for over two years.

I'm not sure where you got your information from, but PLD certainly was viable throughout coil in ARR. The world first clears of every coil turn outside of savage second coil featured a PLD main tank. In T5, it featured double PLD. Many early kills of T8 and T9 featured PLD solo tanks, simply to help with dps checks, and that became the meta for a time. A lot of second coil was tankable with a solo PLD, and many of the "fixes" brought in with savage actually forced a two tank comp by making players deal with mechanics that they previously bypassed or ignored as a single PLD tank (by adding vuln to Ravensbeak in addition to the delayed explosion to force a swap, or by making the Dreadnaught tether to Avatar to force them to be tanked apart).

PLD's utility and mitigation is not "too niche". It has always had an advantage in both of those areas. Hallowed lets you flat out bypass intended mechanics, and in ARR, playing defensively during progression was a priority. In early HW, everyone assumed that PLD's dominance would continue. Sheltron was supposed to be the next IB. A lot of players locked in PLD for early HW ex primal runs, and A1S-A2S was bruteforced with PLD/WAR. It's only when players hit a wall in A3S that things had to be changed up. It's not that the large mitigation advantages PLD brought were unnecessary. It was that being able to survive the fight at a mitigation disadvantage with the other two jobs allowed you to make the dps checks at lower gear levels.

Actually, the issue at the moment isn't that PLD's defensive/utility kit outshines WAR's offensive kit. That was always the case. It's the fact that PLD's offensive kit presently outshines WAR's offensive kit as well. We'll have to see how things shape up in raid content, but this is already shaping up to be a worse balance setup than even 3.x WAR. On the plus side, when they do get around to doing further rebalancing, perhaps this will provide a dev rationale to finally tone down PLD's defensive kit, as the justification that it "does less damage" no longer holds. Balance is an iterative process, after all.

Either way, I'm not overly worried. There's always been a fairly large discrepancy in tank dps due to variations in skill, and it's always entertaining to completely outperform someone while playing a more complex job which is "theoretically" not supposed to come out on top. I'm more concerned over the situation over tank stat scaling, as that's going to have a bigger impact on performance differences. Either way, it's up to you to decide whether you want 4.0 PLD to be remembered in the same light as 3.x WAR, or differently: by acting with grace, or without it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Either way, I'm not overly worried. There's always been a fairly large discrepancy in tank dps due to variations in skill, and it's always entertaining to completely outperform someone while playing a more complex job which is "theoretically" not supposed to come out on top.

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Yea this pretty much, for the record I have all tanks 70, and had all 60 in hw, but its funny how pld mains are gloating and talking down to war mains, but i guarantee 99% of them like this donaria guy sit in shield oath, dont even know their proper rotation, and are the same paladins im getting in my doge farm groups who i out parse by 800+ dps on any tank I play. But then again they are PLD mains, the idiot proof 1-2-3 tank so they need any handicap they can get lol

I like how people define "balance" as really meaning "I should be able to solo dps in a dungeon group more than the other guy".

If we are truly familiar with the devs logic that we've seen over the years, their idea of "balancing" probably means "let's weaken a bunch of jobs to give tanks and healers something to worry about".

Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

But then again they are PLD mains, the idiot proof 1-2-3 tank so they need any handicap they can get lol

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^^^Bingo ^^^

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If I may mount my high horse for a moment, I wasn't the one embracing gameplay that hovered between unorthodox and really unintended. Specially in the context of tanks, I've been calling this since 3.0/3.1, when everyone and their mother started treating Shield Oath/Grit/Defiance like some sort of design flaw or disease that shouldn't be there because it hurts t3h d33pz. On a personal note, Stormblood seems to be pushing tanks in a direction I already followed, so the changes are no skin off my back.

And if being forced to play defensively is enough to make people quit the role (a tank having to focus on defense; what a concept!), I'll question why they rolled a tank in the first place.

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Except it isn't defensive. If I can survive a tank buster in DPS stance, what purpose does my tank stance serve? That has been the fundamental issue. Nothing in the game has ever required tank stance to be on consistently, massive trash pulls notwithstanding. Even now, Susano and Lakshmi do nothing to enforce more frequent use of tank stance. If this continues into Omega, you'll see the same meta you did throughout 3.x. Why? Because defense only matters to a certain threshold. Once surpassed, there is no reason to keep piling on top of it. Yes, the devs are trying to discourage the DPS mindset, but until damage spikes are less scripted and simply higher, people aren't going to care. There's a reason tanks are wearing 270 Slaying accessories after all. It's better.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If I may mount my high horse for a moment, I wasn't the one embracing gameplay that hovered between unorthodox and really unintended. Specially in the context of tanks, I've been calling this since 3.0/3.1, when everyone and their mother started treating Shield Oath/Grit/Defiance like some sort of design flaw or disease that shouldn't be there because it hurts t3h d33pz. On a personal note, Stormblood seems to be pushing tanks in a direction I already followed, so the changes are no skin off my back.

And if being forced to play defensively is enough to make people quit the role (a tank having to focus on defense; what a concept!), I'll question why they rolled a tank in the first place.
Our experiences have been different, then. I've seen tanks get demolished when trying to not use their defensive stances since Doma Castle. Haven't tried any of the EX primals yet, so I'll take your word for it.
You can and definitely should maximize damage while being defensive; you're just doing it in tank stance.

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You do realize that DPS is one of the best forms of support in this game, right? DPS is king in this game. That's just how the game works. More DPS = push phases faster, less chances to screw up. That being said, I don't really care about hitting 2.5k DPS, which tanks can still possibly do. I care about having fun.

Yeah, because you're looking at pug tanks who don't know how to use their cooldowns effectively. Grit and Shield Oath are effectively cooldowns, the same as Rampart, except they're on the GCD. For trash, I'd agree it's probably better to stay in tank stance. But for bosses? I'm 100% sure the pro tanks are stance dancing.

http://i.imgur.com/hqxHgRb.png

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You know what I find interesting? Tank stance for Warrior in TERA doesn't have a damage penalty. It just doesn't have damage up stats like the DPS stance does.

https://sites.google.com/site/yoshas...lass-change-12
https://sites.google.com/site/yoshas...lass-change-14

And the devs embraced the meta rather than fighting against it. They increased the damage by 200% for the only 1 of 2 skills that has an aggro modifier. They increased crit power/damage from the front by 1.18x (this is on top of the wrath crystal), closing the gap with DPS. They also increased the crit chance on tank stance by 15%, closing the gap with DPS even more. In TERA the way damage worked is due to crystals and a consumable, you would do like 8x damage if you crit from the back as a DPS. Yeah, it's 7.9 (base 2.0 + 1.78 + 1.44 + 1.26 + 1.42) while for tanks it would be 6.78 (base 2.0 + 1.78 + 1.58 + 1.42), 7.96 with the buff.

And the way fights were designed in TERA, you needed to be in tank stance because of the constant damage output so you needed the ability to block damage. I'd say in FFXIV even with the boss fights we have now, it doesn't enforce tank stance usage because tankbusters are still scripted.

Tankbuster timing for the cleave in Susano Ex.