And what game have you ever heard of when a producer is saying it is ok for one class role can push a button once a minute while DPS/tank roles need a 50 + APM or so? This thread and statement rather is an insult to all those that try their best seeing "it is ok to be lazy"Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Galactimus
The only ignoring going on is you not reading my posts and making this thread knowing a fight will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck
You have not responded to my main point yet.
Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"
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06-07-2017, 03:41 PMHamada
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06-07-2017, 03:41 PMsavageink
Honestly if you are a healer and you catch a chance to throw a few stones go for it. If you are worried you will screw up the stance dance. don't dance. You still do damage without the switch, just not as much. Or as much as someone who does do the dance. But it's better than standing around picking your nose. I'm not picky. ;)
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06-07-2017, 03:43 PMTorchicEX
Yes Healers have the ability to DPS. But they are not full fledged DPS. There is a reason why they added more stats to make the DPS difference between healers and DPS/tanks bigger. Tanks get Tenacity which can both up their damage and lower what they take, DPS get Direct Hit which increases their damage like a smaller crit and also stacks with crit.
Healers are not meant to be DPS heavy people and Yoshi understands that for some people it is too much for some people which is why he emphasizes the point that it isn't mandatory, yes of course people can do it but they aren't obligated to. Red Mage has the ability to cure effectively well (surprisingly) but they aren't obligated to heal us because of it. Don't force your ideals on someone who doesn't want to or isn't capable of thinking that far in advance. Believe Yoshi-P who understands that not everyone is the same and tries to make it fair for everyone but can't win because people view it just like this. -
06-07-2017, 03:44 PMAbriaelNope. It says "it's ok to do your job."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamada
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06-07-2017, 03:45 PMHikuras
Is this debate as strong in the japanese forums? I just want to know.
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06-07-2017, 03:48 PMTheRealMadruckYet again both of these points are mute. A healer heals...a tank tanks and a DPS is to DPS. Anything above that in your opinion, NOTHING ELSE! FF14 has a very specific way it was designed.....even if you want to ignore the facts about it. That is all that needs to be said...NEXT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
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06-07-2017, 03:48 PMDualbladeActually this has been the company line since 2.0. Healer DPS was NEVER accounted for in any battle content, it was basically supposed to be good enough that those who wanted to only play healer classes/jobs could do the solo content without issue. That said they also aren't against healer DPS, and if SB enemy damage output is comparable to ARR and HW ones then you won't find any top-tier raiders are those approaching such that don't have their Healers using their damage skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoulstar
Outside of what I'm qouting, why do Healers get a "free pass" on this? It isn't really that they do, but rather that their damage output doesn't have a hard direct effect on their healing. DPS have to DPS because otherwise they aren't doing their job at all. Tanks do DPS because outside of Flash and Provoke all of their hate generation comes from damage the enemy. And the amount of people who want Flash to do damage says enough about how well Flash does on its own to keep hate. Healing (mostly) does no damage, and thus truly is secondary for the role.
As someone who isn't nearly a good enough healer for even trials though, only healing can be boring up until I also start doing some damage. Because as the quote goes, "ALWAYS be casting!" -
06-07-2017, 03:48 PMMalkomiaOk, so if dps is not mandatory for healers, then i will choose as a tank to stop dpsing, if i will be far ahead in my aggro next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck
My Job as a tank is to hold aggro and lower incoming damage for me and the rest of the group.
So it is ok for you, if i will be lazy and do nothing but 1-2-3 Combo every 30 secs to hold aggro?
Why you tolerate a lazy healer, who do nothing but heal (mostly overheal) and go dance in no damage phases?
Will you tolerate the lazy tank too? I think i wouldnt tolerate that tank. -
06-07-2017, 03:51 PMxJimmehxAnd some people get paid more to do less work than you do. That's life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Oh and some people are much smarter than 'you'(as in the reader) as well, making better gameplay decisions with less brain power.(or the exact opposite{not as smart})
If you truly think a healer should heal and dps; why dont you think a paladin should tank, dps, and pass out stoneskins/protects and heal everyone? Just because its part of the toolkit, that doesnt make it required. It also does not make it "lazy"
Also seeing as people are saying why is it fair healers do less.. Well, If you f$#k up as a healer we ALL die. So uh.. maybe thats why? Its optional. -
06-07-2017, 03:54 PMShurrikhanBut those "easy to play" classes aren't made "easy" through community acceptance of opportunity cost from something as blatant as NOT DOING ANYTHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
There's a difference between reduced skill dependence, such as a nonetheless long-ranged or immobile weapon in an FPS being balanced around a high spread, wherein accuracy is devalued, and someone literally being told they can drop their controller for a few seconds every dozen. There is no class design short of massive resource insufficiency that can warrant the latter, or, for that matter, healers not healing in such a healing-unintensive environment as the majority of XIV.
Many of these analogies are irrelevant, or warrant the opposite of what you seem to be arguing for.Quote:
Originally Posted by xJimmehx
For tanking and dpsing:
Paladins tank and dps simultaneously not because they're doubling up on roles, but because they can. There is no opportunity cost for simply DPSing as a tank; they can be done simultaneously. In the same way, there is no opportunity cost apart from mild mana use for DPSing as a healer when no one needs to be a curative/protective GCD spent on them in the given global(s). (And do not say, "But they'll need to be shielded/HoTed in preparation for the next GCD or two!" In that case they NEED that GCD.)
A tank, however, has multiple degrees of DPS vs. mitigation potential to decide between, increasing ones DPS potential as a tank costs eHP and curative efficiency, thereby decreasing healer DPS by the accumulation of specific healer GCD choices affected, and picking whichever of the two choices is more efficient. A healer does not. A healer either DPSes in a given global or they do anything else.
As for casting Stoneskin, Protect, and Clemency:
The Paladin isn't expected to Stoneskin not because he's a non-healer, but because of the opportunity cost involved. All casts break combos. He stands to waste 500 to 520 potency from casting a Stoneskin during the third tier of a combo. If there's no one else to prevent a death or massive debuff that a Stoneskin could prevent, he should do so. But since he stands far more to lose than either healer, he's the last resort.
The same is true of Clemency. At present if running more than a 2.42 GCD, any cast may neglect a tick of Goring Blade. Delays to auto-attacks cost further potency, increased by approximately two-thirds in Sword Oath. As of Stormblood, it will have the opportunity cost of a 504 relative potency damaging cast. Seeing as his Clemency potency no more than a 600-potency healer-class heal, yet no healer can even create half that potency of damage in a global, the opportunity cost again makes it optimal for the Paladin to use a given opportunity for Holy Spirit, rather than for Clemency. Should, however, someone need to be saved at a time in which only the Paladin is capable, then he should save them. Should a healer still stand, however, the issue remains that combos drop upon the start of a cast; should the PLD notice that the healer actually will be able to heal in time 5% into the cast, he's still lost 1-2 GCDs of uptime plus the portion of the cast and however long latency takes to return his cancelled GCD.
Prior to HW, if running at a 2.4 GCD or lower and provided he can finish his combo first and no SCH present, a Paladin should be the one to cast Protect, in order to save the healers the negligible amount of mana that, for him, is infinite, because it cost him a mere 180 potency (1/3rd of a RA combo - the GB tick he otherwise would have clipped), compared to the 220 or greater per-GCD potency (CS included) of an AST or 230 or greater of a WHM, and because he has essentially infinite mana anyways. Should Flight or Flight be active, however, then it again becomes optimal for the healer to cast instead. And as of Stormblood, this would again badly diminish the PLD's DPS at any time.
Because of all these different considerations by which opportunity cost for the Paladin almost always exceeds opportunity cost for healers, healers tend to cover these functions instead. Not because it's their role, but because their toolkit makes it less disadvantageous.
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While that may sound complex or class-specific, the principle is not: We do what is most efficient.