Choosing a tank class..

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Originally Posted by Delorean

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

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It depends. WAR is definitely the most pug friendly tank, since you are capable of self-sufficiently maximizing your performance no matter how poorly the rest of your party plays. It is the least needy job in the game and so people that otherwise play very poorly (NINs that don't Shadewalker, ranged that don't Quell, a fellow WAR co tank that spams BB, or a SCH that doesn't hop out of cleric to shield for busters, for instance) will think you are just the bees knees.

DRK (and to a lesser extent PLD) on the other hand, really require team coordination to maximize, and if you try and play optimally on DRK in a pug group that isn't prepared to coordinate things like shields, tank swaps, and aggro management, bad things are going to happen and their dumb asses are going to blame you.

TL;DR WAR permits your group to play poorly as a team and ignore a lot of their utilities, whereas the other tanks force everyone to use their tools to the fullest if they want to get an optimal run.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

It depends. WAR is definitely the most pug friendly tank, since you are capable of self-sufficiently maximizing your performance no matter how poorly the rest of your party plays. It is the least needy job in the game and so people that otherwise play very poorly (NINs that don't Shadewalker, ranged that don't Quell, a fellow WAR co tank that spams BB, or a SCH that doesn't hop out of cleric to shield for busters, for instance) will think you are just the bees knees.
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TL;DR WAR permits your group to play poorly as a team and ignore a lot of their utilities, whereas the other tanks force everyone to use their tools to the fullest if they want to get an optimal run.

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Thing is....people read stuff like this, and think WAR's are gods, and no matter how FUBAR they play, we'll handle it no sweat. Reality says that fails miserably, because a lot of WAR meta is based on forum myths.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'd have to disagree. WAR is by far the easiest tank class, and even the easiest class to perform well with in the game.

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I'd have to disagree, simply because both WAR and DRK have something PLD does not - currency that can be spent either offensively or defensively.
While the toolkit of WAR is in no means harder to utilize than PLD, it's the management of Wrath stacks that make or break a good WAR.

Stacks aren't really a resource that you "manage" per se. Everything costs exactly five stacks. Your resource management ability largely hinges on your ability to count to five. You then either perform your high damage single target move, or your high damage AoE move. You can learn to play WAR HUDless if you know how to count in your head (this is pretty good practice, in fact).

Part of the problem is that the Deliverance stack moves introduced in HW are significantly better than the Defiance stack moves. In ARR, Inner Beast forced you to think about whether to spend your stacks immediately for offense, or to hold them for mitigation a few gcds later. With the introduction of Fell Cleave, you don't really want to spend your stacks on Inner Beast if you can avoid it, and you have so many other defensive cooldowns with such short recasts that you generally can find ways around using it. Outside of progression, it's pretty much just a safety net for when you mismanage your defensive cooldowns. I would be surprised if Steel Cyclone gets used any more with Decimate available. Unchained is interesting, especially if you were actually forced to use Defiance for a section of a fight, but more often it tends to be relegated the role of enmity grab.

Most of WAR's gameplay hinges around Berserk windows every 90 seconds, much like PLD hinges around FoF windows every 90 seconds. The entirety of both jobs depends on how well you place and execute these relatively fixed rotations.

If you want to give WAR a more interesting resource management system, you need to introduce variable costs. Introduce some abilities that cost 1-2 stacks. Bring back stack penalties for changing stances. Don't give away stacks so freely. Promote defensive stack usage, either by making IB required, or adding stack costs to some other defensive abilities. Perhaps make the passive effects of the stacks more desirable, forcing you to stay above a certain threshold. Force the player to think carefully about whether they want to spend their stacks now aggressively, or whether to hold them defensively for a necessary ability in a few gcds.

But Wrath stacks most certainly are a resource that will require management when playing WAR at "peak" level in progression. Even if every ability costs 5 stacks, the management is in the decision making.
You don't sit on stacks too long because it will lower your damage, but you don't use Fel Cleave whenever you get 5 stacks either, because you might not have enough for Inner Beast when the next tankbuster hits.
And there is also the timing of defensive abilities to take into considerations that will grants you additional stacks that you don't want to go to waste.

But that's the point. WAR has the shortest recasts on their defensive abilities of any tank. There's usually a way to avoid spending stacks on Inner Beast, and it usually means that you're playing sub-optimally if you do.

Generally speaking, Raw Intuition is the only defensive cooldown that gets tied up by Berserk. Both are on a 90 second recast. The Vengeance stack is essentially free, unless you're trying to reset Infuriate prior to your opener. If you need to use Raw Intuition defensively, you just adjust your swaps so that the Berserk window syncs up with the damage. But the recasts on Vengeance and Holmgang are so absurdly short that this is usually more of a bonus.

Someone (a many a few others) have made it clear we don't know what 60-70 plus the new battle system has in store; so you should reserve making that decision IFFF YOUR DECISION IS BASED ON PLAY-STYLE AND COMPOSITIONS.

If however other aspects of the tanks influences your sway then there are a ton of ideas you can settle in your mind now. For certain SE will not COMPLETELY change the Lore/play style behind each tank.

Warrior will be berserker savage
Dark Knight will be mysteriously magical
Paladin will be Holy white knight

There play styles will most definitely stick close to their lore.

Yes WAR has the shortest recast on their defensive abilities, but that does not mean IB is disregarded, it's one of the most reliable mitigation tools offered when playing WAR.
This is basically what managing the stacks is about, sometimes you need Inner Beast, other times you don't, sometimes you use it just to be safe.
This all depends on what content you are doing, who you are doing it with, and how well the fight is going. Different circumstances means different adaptations might be necessary.

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Originally Posted by Ayuris

This is basically what managing the stacks is about, sometimes you need Inner Beast, other times you don't, sometimes you use it just to be safe.

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You actually just never use IB. If you use your stacks for anything in Defiance it's for Unchained to have the extra healing received/health boon until you go back into Deliverance. To be fair there was stack management in 2.0 and in early 3.0 I was personally excited about Deliverance because (at the time) it seemed like another layer to stack management - now you need to decide when you should be in Defiance and when you should be in Deliverance and plan your stacks accordingly! Warrior's gonna be even more fun! But then it turned out Defiance was useless, especially when raids got easier and easier. Then the VIT changes came along and people thought this would mean bosses would do more damage to compensate, but it turns out they do the same damage and there's even less reason to be in Defiance.

Anyway, I'm hoping stack management returns in 4.0, but for now you're basically just a Fell Cleave bot that sometimes presses defensive CDs.

e: Just read Lyth's post and they basically covered what I said, but since the post I'm replying to takes place after that... I feel like maybe you may have misunderstood it so hopefully this helps a bit.

I agree that is not as necessary as in the earlier days. I've read Lyth's posts, but the fact is still that Inner Beast can be life saving when healers are lagging behind.
In an ideal group of experienced players the usage of IB wouldn't be necessary, but it's not unusual getting PF groups that struggle, and that's when you "might" need to adapt.